"A FLOOD of NONSENSE! - Global Flood or Mass Extinctions?"

[Miles]

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A delightful explanation of why the notion of a global flood---the Noachian Flood---doesn't make any sense.




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Question: Is any of what Forrest Valkai, the host, said, wrong? If so, what and why?


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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #24]

Did you know that there are scientists who recognize that the cradle of modern civilization was in the area where the Bible says that the first descendants of Noah settled, near Sumer?

Did you know that there is a continuous record of human existence in this area (and many others) from well before the claimed date for Noah's flood, to the present day, with no interruptions in populations? World population near 3000 BC (some 600 years before the biblical flood claimed date) is estimated between 14 - 100 million people.

If all of these people, save 8, were killed in global flood 4400 years ago don't you think there'd be some evidence for this mass disappearance of human beings, and their artifacts, structures, etc.? An interruption in activity as populations were rebuilt starting from just 8 people (not to mention the inbreeding problems that would represent)? Some anomalies in the fossil record around 4400 years ago (did kangaroos hop from the Middle East to Australia in one leap)? None of this evidence exists, of course. Noah, and his flood, are both pure fiction.

[Clownboat]

Did you know that the first and oldest known human civilizations are already sufficiently developed with language, cities, commerce, political administration and everything that an organized community entails?

So therefore a global flood happened killing all animals save 2 of each (with exceptions) and every human save eight? You can't be serious!

There is nothing in the fossils to show that these civilizations, which only date back to 4 millennia BC, have evolved from communities with anything less than what they already had.

You ignore older civilization and don't seem to realize that communities would evolve with what they had available.

The reality is that humanity already appears civilized and intelligent from the 4th millennium BC

Finally you got something correct! Much of humanity was likely civilized in the 4th millennium BC.

and there is no "evolution" that has suddenly led any animal community to this development.

Uh oh! You are showing us how little you understand about what we are talking about I fear.

Human evolution is a myth. It didn't happen in the real life

Would it not be the height of arrogance to get so much wrong and then expect outlandish claims like this to be taken seriously?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #29]

The reality is that humanity already appears civilized and intelligent from the 4th millennium BC and there is no "evolution" that has suddenly led any animal community to this development.

I missed this gem earlier. You are missing the one obvious, glaring example of exactly what you said above didn't happen ... human evolution! First, humans are members of the animal kingdom so are animals. Second our evolutionary history shows a bushy but chronoligically correct path from earlier primates to great apes to the genus Homo. The first members of the genus Homo appeared around 2.5 million years ago (Homo habilis) and I expect you'd call those "animals" as they were similar to chips but a little larger and smarter. You can read all about this in many sources. Here is an easy intro:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180976807/

This all started long before the 4th millennium BC, and as time progressed so did encephalization from habilis to erectus and through to sapiens. Our present level of intelligence evolved over time as brain size and structure both advanced driven by natural selection and the obvious benefits of higher intelligence (which animal happens to run the world at the moment?). By the time of the mythical biblical flood, Homo sapiens just like us anatomically had existed for some 200,000 - 300,000 years.

There is zero evidence of any interruption of any kind around 4400 years ago, such as would be caused by a global flood. Such an event would have had major consenquences to populations (obviously), geology, artifacts, etc., but virtualy none of this is observed. There is simply no evidence for such an event, which is why the science world discards it as just a fictional story. It isn't about bible bashing or anti-religion ... it is simply the total lack of any credible evidence for it.

[Clownboat]

It isn't about bible bashing or anti-religion ... it is simply the total lack of any credible evidence for it.

Which brings us back full circle. To discuss such topics (like a flat earth or global flood) is to give such ideas credit they don't yet deserve. All due to a lack of credible evidence to begin with.

If only it stopped with a lack of evidence though. On top of there being no evidence, fantastic, miraculous and impossible claims are also added.

We all know why though. NASA is in on it!

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #29]

The reality is that humanity already appears civilized and intelligent from the 4th millennium BC and there is no "evolution" that has suddenly led any animal community to this development.

I missed this gem earlier. You are missing the one obvious, glaring example of exactly what you said above didn't happen ... human evolution! First, humans are members of the animal kingdom so are animals. Second our evolutionary history shows a bushy but chronoligically correct path from earlier primates to great apes to the genus Homo. The first members of the genus Homo appeared around 2.5 million years ago (Homo habilis) and I expect you'd call those "animals" as they were similar to chips but a little larger and smarter. You can read all about this in many sources. Here is an easy intro:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180976807/

This all started long before the 4th millennium BC, and as time progressed so did encephalization from habilis to erectus and through to sapiens. Our present level of intelligence evolved over time as brain size and structure both advanced driven by natural selection and the obvious benefits of higher intelligence (which animal happens to run the world at the moment?). By the time of the mythical biblical flood, Homo sapiens just like us anatomically had existed for some 200,000 - 300,000 years.

There is zero evidence of any interruption of any kind around 4400 years ago, such as would be caused by a global flood. Such an event would have had major consenquences to populations (obviously), geology, artifacts, etc., but virtualy none of this is observed. There is simply no evidence for such an event, which is why the science world discards it as just a fictional story. It isn't about bible bashing or anti-religion ... it is simply the total lack of any credible evidence for it.

You are confirming what I said.

You are saying that humans exist 200-300 thousand years ago. However, the only real evidence that this is the age of humans would be that they have found human fossils showing that they belong to civilized people like the ones we see in complete records up to 6 thousand years old AND NOT BEFORE THAT.

This is your story: a scenario of hundreds of thousands of years where there were civilized humans, with no proof other than the myth that there were apes becoming humans at that time. Apes are apes and humans are humans...no matter how much you and others want to make believe that we are animals. You can call yourself that if you want... but leave me out, and leave out the human civilizations for which there is evidence, but which only go back to the fourth millennium BC.

The interruption that you're looking for is in front of your eyes, but you cann't see it.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #35]

You are saying that humans exist 200-300 thousand years ago. However, the only real evidence that this is the age of humans would be that they have found human fossils showing that they belong to civilized people like the ones we see in complete records up to 6 thousand years old AND NOT BEFORE THAT.

You got part of that correct. The evidence for Homo sapiens appearing some 200 - 300 thousands years ago are dated fossil remains. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omo_remains

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Irhoud

Here is a more complete list of fossils including those before Homo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_h ... on_fossils

I'm not just making stuff up. What you have very wrong is the idea that Homo sapiens somehow had to belong to civilizations or be "civilized people." The start of written history is when humans first worked up written languages (obviously), but this is just one event that advanced human capabilities. Learning to domestic animals and farm crops (Neolithic) is another event that predated written lanquage by some 6000 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

Are you claiming that the people living during the early Neolithic period were not humans? Prior to the Neolithic, humans lived as hunter-gatherers as is well known, and prior to that we have lots of evidence that Homo sapiens were alive and well and spread over large parts of the globe. The invention of written language was not the start of the "age of humans" ... it was just one important event in a long chain of them. Who do you think made Venus figurines?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurine

This is your story: a scenario of hundreds of thousands of years where there were civilized humans, with no proof other than the myth that there were apes becoming humans at that time. Apes are apes and humans are humans...no matter how much you and others want to make believe that we are animals. You can call yourself that if you want... but leave me out, and leave out the human civilizations for which there is evidence, but which only go back to the fourth millennium BC.

Again you've got it all wrong. I didn't say there were "civilized" humans 200-300 thousand years ago (whatever that phrase even means ... they were hunter-gatherers). The evidence for Homo sapiens of that age is the fossil record. How "civilized" they were has nothing to do with anything. The transitional process from apes to the genus Homo was LONG before this ... by millions of years. Homo sapiens didn't just appear, fully formed as we are now, with big brains, etc. Evolution explains how this happened (slowly, over time, in incremental steps which we have a lot of fossil evidence for).

The interruption that you're looking for is in front of your eyes, but you cann't see it.

Then explain what that interruption is. What evidence is there for any such thing? You haven't presented any yet. Or are you claiming that the appearance of written language is somehow indicative of a massive interruption in human existence 4400 years ago?

[Eloi]

This is not wrong: Homo sapiens somehow had to belong to civilizations or be "civilized people." You are the ones calling humans Homo sapiens.

In the Bible I have learned that since the first couple of humans were created they could already communicate. They were also capable of reasoning, and immediately after disobeying their heavenly Father they already knew what modesty was and covered their private parts. Soon after, their descendants began building cities, handling metals, and creating musical instruments, among other things. That is being a human and it started in the fourth millenium B.C..

Stories about something else that existed like humans before that couple was created are just this: myths. The fact that no human civilization has been discovered before Sumer (which according to you is somewhat coincidental that the Bible locates the first existing human community in that same area and at the same time) is enough proof that no human existed before them.

Fossils that are dated before that date are neither civilized nor HUMAN. And where are those semihuman apes when civilizations appear? THERE ARE NONE ... A lot of myth for hundreds of thousands of years of human history WITHOUT A SINGLE PROOF.

You fill innocent people's heads with fantasies about mommy ape X having an affair with daddy ape Y and fathering little ape children Z, until they became humans. Hunters and gatherers we still have them to this day... and they're not apes, they're humans. If you take a baby from an aboriginal tribe and educate him in a school of civilization, you will see that this child is as capable as any other human.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Eloi in post #37]

You are the ones calling humans Homo sapiens.

What? We are Homo sapiens. That is our taxonomic classification. It isn't derogatory. It is no different than calling dogs canines.

In the Bible I have learned that since the first couple of humans were created they could already communicate. They were also capable of reasoning, and immediately after disobeying their heavenly Father they already knew what modesty was and covered their private parts. Soon after, their descendants began building cities, handling metals, and creating musical instruments, among other things. That is being a human and it started in the fourth millenium B.C..

This is a fictional bible story. Science has demonstrated, conclusively, that this is not how humans came into existence.

Stories about something else that existed like humans before that couple was created are just this: myths. The fact that no human civilization has been discovered before Sumer (which according to you is somewhat coincidental that the Bible locates the first existing human community in that same area and at the same time) is enough proof that no human existed before them.

You're again equating civilizations with the existence of humans for some strange reason. Humans existed long before they figured out farming, domestication of animals, written language, and all the things needed to eventually live in large numbers in communities that eventually grew into cities and civilizations. We know this from the archeological and fossil records ... it is a fact.

Fossils that are dated before that date are neither civilized nor HUMAN. And where are those semihuman apes when civilizations appear? THERE ARE NONE ... A lot of myth for hundreds of thousands of years of human history WITHOUT A SINGLE PROOF.

Have you ever read even a short summary of human evolution to try and understand what it is all about? Evidently not. What is a "semihuman ape"? The proof we have is the fossil record, and more recently genetics. The full genome of several Neanderthals, who died out some 35,000 years ago, has been sequenced. Or do you not believe that DNA exists and can actually be interpreted? How do you explain this:

https://www.genome.gov/27539119/2010-re ... -sequenced

This isn't handwaving religious nonsense ... it is real science and just one example of how we know that humans didn't just appear, fully formed, in Mesopotamia some 6000 years ago. The proof that you claim doesn't exist is actually overwhelming.

You fill innocent people's heads with fantasies about mommy ape X having an affair with daddy ape Y and fathering little ape children Z, until they became humans. Hunters and gatherers we still have them to this day... and they're not apes, they're humans. If you take a baby from an aboriginal tribe and educate him in a school of civilization, you will see that this child is as capable as any other human.

Is that how you think evolution works? You really need to read an introductory book or online source to educate yourself on at least the basics. Apes didn't suddenly give birth to a human baby one day! And no one claimed that hunter-gatherers suddenly vanished from the Earth when civilizations appeared. The timelines for this stuff are pretty well known, but I suppose if you really believe humans were poofed into existence 6000 years ago in Mesopotamia, fully formed and ready to build civilizations, there's not point in trying to learn how things really did happen.

[Eloi]

You will always find varieties of bodies among humans: short, tall, with big heads or small heads, thin or thick, etc. What you will never find is a human who is not capable of thinking.

Humans are that basically because of their mind, not because of their bodies. You, by assuming that humans originated from apes, are looking for humanity in apes' skulls, because you do not realize that humans have a unique ability that did not arise naturally, but was given to us in the moment we were differently created: with an intellectual dimension.

Your problem is that known reality supports the biblical story of the origin of human race while you try to find ways to justify an alternate reality to deny it. I'm not saying that there are discoveries or studies that need answers... but the point is that those discoveries need to be interpreted correctly and not directed on purpose to favor only a predetermined agenda.

And NO, I won't give my mind to your myths. I need the most room of my brain to think objectively.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to Eloi in post #39]

Namaskaram Eloi

But you are not thinking objectively What are you doing...

Your friend forever

Waterfall