The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

[Diogenes]

The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.

[dad1]

So? Have they translated that young-earth belief into any actual contributions to our scientific understanding of the world around us?

Yes. People that believe in Jesus tend to not fear the awful effects of science. We understand that science has it's little place. That place is not to be worshiped or blindly trusted.

[dad1]

I accept plenty of evolving went on after creation! I even think it used to happen at rates far far far far far far far far faster than anything possible today in this present nature.

On what basis do you hold that belief? What specifically was responsible for the rate decreasing so significantly?

I did not say rates decreased. What I noted was that decay and the rates it happens are known features of this present nature and time. What makes you claim there was radioactive decay as we know it in Noah's day? Decay is just a result of forces and laws acting on things.

[dad1]

Hate and murder and sin and etc are bad. Very bad. Jesus came to fix it, though some might prefer death and hell.

Jesus fixed nothing. What a waste of a visit from an omnipotent deity. Oh, wait. i think he cured a few lepers. Big deal.

We will disagree. The only thing debilitating is the hatred for God around here.

No hatred for God. It's patently clear he is just a human invention.

Proof? Name the person who invented God? Where did they live? How old were they?

[dad1]

On what basis? Or is this just a wild guess with no thought (or evidence) involved?

On the basis that you have no basis that is not faith based. If you think you do then post it.

WHAT? "On the basis that you have no basis that is not faith base"??? In other words you just plucked the idea out of the air and you have absolutely no means of justifying your claim. That is exactly how faith poisons reason.

If you have basis then quit whining and post it. The premise that nature was the same on earth always is a part of scientific dating. Prove it?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to dad1 in post #36]

I have no reason to assume they were this way even in Noah's day.

And you have no reason to assume they weren't. Plus, "Noah's day" was a measly 4,359 years ago according to AIG (year of flood) with Noah supposedly living another 350 years to 950 years old (obviously a myth). That is less than the half life of carbon-14 of about 5,730 years! It is nothing in geologic time and certainly no reason to believe radioactive decay rates were any different such a short time ago. There were millions of people on Earth at the supposed date of the mythical global flood (AIG even claim up to 750 million):

https://rightingamerica.net/noahs-flood ... -billions/

More realistic numbers not pulled from the behind as AIG did are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates ... population

showing a few 10s of millions. There's no reason to believe that everything they ate, built, etc. was made of atoms having different properties than atoms today. Of course the Noah's flood story is a myth and no such flood has ever happened while humans inhabited Earth, but if the story was true Noah's boat could have had very different properties if the atoms making the wood, food, etc. were somehow diffferent than today. It might not even float!

[dad1]

And you have no reason to assume they weren't.

If either I or science then, claims it is one way or the other, proof is needed. The dates are based on a belief it was the same. Work on that.

Plus, "Noah's day" was a measly 4,359 years ago according to AIG (year of flood) with Noah supposedly living another 350 years to 950 years old (obviously a myth). That is less than the half life of carbon-14 of about 5,730 years!

Unless nature was the same in Noahs' day there was no half life that we know about! Half life is a feature of the present nature and observing how it works here now!

It is nothing in geologic time and certainly no reason to believe radioactive decay rates were any different such a short time ago. There were millions of people on Earth at the supposed date of the mythical global flood (AIG even claim up to 750 million):

All those dates are based on a belief. The belief nature was the same. Unless it was the dates have no value or relevance. That is all based on today and what we observe happening now.

So, that means actual time is not related to dream date time. In dream date time the flood was maybe 70 million years ago. In actual time that KT layer was more like 4500 years ago.

Oh, and by the way it is impossible to get good population numbers from the perspective of nature today! Maybe they had a lot of triplets or maybe gestation was only 3 months, or maybe they had babies a little earlier etc etc etc etc. We don't know, therefore we are not in a position to question it! One thing we are told is that man lived nearly 1000 years! Now that is different.

showing a few 10s of millions. There's no reason to believe that everything they ate, built, etc. was made of atoms having different properties than atoms today.

Atoms and light and gravity and etc must operate according to laws and forces! The forces determine the properties.

Of course the Noah's flood story is a myth and no such flood has ever happened while humans inhabited Earth,

Why make statements you can't back up?

but if the story was true Noah's boat could have had very different properties if the atoms making the wood, food, etc. were somehow diffferent than today. It might not even float!

It is possible that buoyancy may have been somewhat different. But the thing about the flood is that God conducted that operation. He closed the door of the ark. He sent the waters through those wormholes or windows of heaven from probably beyond where stars are. Etc etc. God would not give the blueprint for a boat that would not float in the time and place it needed to float. Relax

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to dad1 in post #46]

So, that means actual time is not related to dream date time. In dream date time the flood was maybe 70 million years ago. In actual time that KT layer was more like 4500 years ago.

What? Noah's flood supposedly happened specifically to wipe out all the evil humans but 8 that were on the ark. There were no humans around 70 million years ago to kill! Plus, as can be easily shown, there is no source for the amount of water needed to cover the Earth to above the highest mountains at any time when humans have existed. It is a myth copied from earlier similar flood myths.

Oh, and by the way it is impossible to get good population numbers from the perspective of nature today! Maybe they had a lot of triplets or maybe gestation was only 3 months, or maybe they had babies a little earlier etc etc etc etc. We don't know, therefore we are not in a position to question it! One thing we are told is that man lived nearly 1000 years! Now that is different.

We don't need the perspective of "nature today." There was written language 4500 years ago and although the total population estimates cover a wide range (roughly 25 - 70 million) that is still a large number of people. And if people actually lived to 900+ years and were able to have children at 500+ (as the mythical Noah supposedly did), you'd expect a lot more people. But of course no humans have ever lived to anywhere near 900 years, or even 200 years, so it is all nonsense.

Why make statements you can't back up?

I can back it up. There is no source for the amount of water needed to create Noah's flood. Simple as that. If you think where was/is ... explain where it comes from. Here's a simple estimate for how much water could be needed (remove the two @ symbols and paste link into a browser ... when I added the URL here it showed an image with a prohibited word below the title):

https@@://medium.com/@AndrewLSeidel/how-much-water-would-be-needed-for-noahs-flood-ef3145ae1945

It is possible that buoyancy may have been somewhat different. But the thing about the flood is that God conducted that operation.

So why waste time with unsupported ideas that time, radioactive decay, buoyancy, etc. could have been different in the past? You obviously can't back that up with anything but your own personal opinion and comments, and if you want to use the "god did it" explanation there is no need for anything else. All these biblical tall tales are incompatible with modern science and no amount of "could haves" will change that. But allowing for god beings who can make anything happen ... everything is explained without any actual work or effort (except for the fatal flaw that to date no such beings have ever been shown to exist).

[dad1]

What? Noah's flood supposedly happened specifically to wipe out all the evil humans but 8 that were on the ark. There were no humans around 70 million years ago to kill!

I hope you did not mistake no human remains with no humans?! Ha. Hilarious. Unless our present nature existed why would we assume that earlier man did not return to dust quickly so that no bones etc would be found?? Once again you build up fantasy upon the faith foundation of some imaginary same state past.

Plus, as can be easily shown, there is no source for the amount of water needed to cover the Earth to above the highest mountains at any time when humans have existed. It is a myth copied from earlier similar flood myths.

The mountain building was largely after that flood year most likely and there were no high ranges before the flood! Your belief system is flawed.

We don't need the perspective of "nature today." There was written language 4500 years ago and although the total population estimates cover a wide range (roughly 25 - 70 million) that is still a large number of people. And if people actually lived to 900+ years and were able to have children at 500+ (as the mythical Noah supposedly did), you'd expect a lot more people. But of course no humans have ever lived to anywhere near 900 years, or even 200 years, so it is all nonsense.

Gong! Once again your dream dating overwhelms reality. The bible was not written in the flood year. The nature we know today probably started about a little over a century after the flood. That was when the lifespans dropped. That was when we no longer saw trees growing in weeks etc. The Sumerians recorded long life spans. (even though pagan records cannot be taken at face value, and they exaggerated etc). Why do you think tombs were such a craze in ancient Egypt? People started dying like flies suddenly compared to what was before.

I can back it up. There is no source for the amount of water needed to create Noah's flood.

How dare you call that weak and uninformed faith based speculative fantasy backing it up! The source for the water was the windows or some might say something science would think of as wormholes, being opened in the air above earth! (as well as some water from under the earth). By the way iridium is thought to originate in space and under the earth!)
At creation we were told that waters here were separated from waters that were above where the stars were made. (firmament). Those waters were transported somehow through windows to this planet. For all we know, a lot of that water was taken up again through them as well?! After all there was a notable vortex like wind mentioned during that time that helped dry the waters!

No amount of water coming or going therefore is beyond possibility or any problem whatsoever!

So why waste time with unsupported ideas that time, radioactive decay, buoyancy, etc. could have been different in the past?

I can guess why people waste time guessing that nature and forces were the same, to try and make God look like a liar! Remember, though, you must support ideas that you call science.

All these biblical tall tales are incompatible with modern science and no amount of "could haves" will change that.

Modern science is based solely on this present nature, obviously. Origin sciences is 100% a conflation of could haves all centering on belief there could have been the same forces and laws in our past!

But allowing for god beings who can make anything happen ... everything is explained without any actual work or effort (except for the fatal flaw that to date no such beings have ever been shown to exist).

Invisible non physical beings are not able to be observed by physical only modern science. This is news?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to dad1 in post #48]

I hope you did not mistake no human remains with no humans?! Ha. Hilarious. Unless our present nature existed why would we assume that earlier man did not return to dust quickly so that no bones etc would be found?

Another "could have" scenario with no basis. There were no humans around 70 million years ago (including archaic humans) because they had not evolved yet. And if you are a YEC which you appear to be, then you don't think anything was around 70 million years ago.

The mountain building was largely after that flood year most likely and there were no high ranges before the flood! Your belief system is flawed.

Really? More made-up statements about what you think "most likely" happened. Do you have any idea how mountain ranges form and how long the process takes?

The bible was not written in the flood year.

Obviously, unless this is how Noah and his 7 companions passed the time. Maybe they also got input from a talking snake during the voyage?

The nature we know today probably started about a little over a century after the flood.

Probably? Why a "little over a century"? Sounds like pure guesswork with (again) no basis to support it.

The source for the water was the windows or some might say something science would think of as wormholes, being opened in the air above earth! (as well as some water from under the earth). By the way iridium is thought to originate in space and under the earth!)
At creation we were told that waters here were separated from waters that were above where the stars were made. (firmament). Those waters were transported somehow through windows to this planet. For all we know, a lot of that water was taken up again through them as well?! After all there was a notable vortex like wind mentioned during that time that helped dry the waters!

Now that is hilarious! All the water for Noah's flood came from space through wormholes, or from "under the earth" (whatever that means), then vanished back through these magical wormhole/windows after the flood. Got it. Makes perfect sense. Wow.

Modern science is based solely on this present nature, obviously.

And there's no reason to believe the past was any different. I know the idea that things "could have" been different is the entire basis of all of your arguments, but you've yet to provide any reason why anyone should believe such a far fetched idea or why it even slightly makes any sense.

Invisible non physical beings are not able to be observed by physical only modern science. This is news?

So the god you believe in is invisible and nonphysical? Must not be the god of the Bible then if humans were created in its image. And modern science can indeed observe invisible, nonphysical things by their effects on instrumentation, for example. Photons at wavelengths outside of the roughly 350 - 800 nm range are invisible to the human eye, but not to an appropriate detector. And photons have no mass. The gods humans have invented to date all seem to have the same property of being indistinguishable from something that does not exist. So how to tell the difference?

[brunumb]

Christ revealed profound knowledge, knowledge undiscoverable through any other means. Of course you don't see that, you don't accept that and that's fine, each in his own time, but it is true.

Please support your claim by providing examples for us to scrutinise.