Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[Purple Knight]

If I saw a jerk purposely using the wrong pronouns because they are trying to be hurtful, I would say something. If society (those around me) agree, we will likely make the jerk feel very small for being the jerk that they are and they will then be exposed. Perhaps they will even do some self reflecting to avoid it happening again in the future. I would not seek to put them in a cell for example because we have made being a jerk/moron a crime. That would be the greater evil IMO.

I agree with everything else. I don't think there's a meaningful difference between putting him in a cell, and excluding him from all of society. If no one else will allow him on their property, then he is in a cell. If he has no property then he is worse than in a cell, defined into lawbreaking for merely existing; he is in the cell without the benefit of having the cell to exist in. If he can't go to the store and buy bread, because the store won't serve him, then he is worse than in a cell, because if we're using force to put him in a cell of government making, at least then we accept that not feeding him and letting him die of starvation is murder.

People have the right to be aware of what actions will get them punished severely. If all of society really thinks misgendering someone is so serious that we need to entirely exclude him, that being written into law is a pure knowledge benefit to the jerk.

It's important to note how easy it is to make a mistake, though. And it's very important that if we want people to follow rules, they can't be hopeless and robbed of agency because they're likely to break the rule and earn punishment even if they try to follow it. So, why try? If people's best effort cannot avoid punishment, they will rightly conclude it is wasted effort.

[brunumb]

Domination and control of others is mostly about interfering with them or their lives, like telling people how they should dress, behave, live and more.

Does that include legislating fines and/or prison as penalties for misgendering someone or using the wrong pronouns? This is the sort of thing one would expect in a police state.

[brunumb]

Control and domination is mostly about stopping others from being what they want to be, such as criminalising LGBT people, or a particular race, or stopping women from voting......et al.

What aspect of being LGBT has been criminalised? We hear the mantra "trans rights are human rights", but what rights have these people been denied? How about parental rights being eroded by state imposed laws based on a seriously flawed gender ideology? You appear to be singing from an empty hymn book.

[brunumb]

Here is another compelling video on this issue featuring a really amazing and grounded lesbian, Arielle Scarcella. But, if you don't want to watch the clip itself, I would encourage you to go to the YouTube site and read the comments left by a very diverse group of people, many directly affected by what has been happening. Very enlightening.

[oldbadger]

"Would you support humans that would use the pronouns that 'they' see fit when addressing others?" No examples are needed and it is becoming apparent as to why you are not answering. Just pretend it happened both on accident and also on purpose that the wrong pronoun is being used.

Clownboat's rules? Just offer a simple example.

1st question: Not that I know of, but odds are... yes.
2nd: Then the neighbor is insulting me on sight. The answer to your question was in your question.
3rd: Getting along would be something I would prefer.
I don't know why you are asking such questions, but since you did, I thought I would answer just in case they will help further debate.

There you are! You won't 'get along' if you address others with your own choice of pronouns.

I have never investigated a pedophile. Once again, why are you asking such questions?

That was fairly obvious...... that's why I wrote what I did. You told me earlier 'Try investigating a pedophile without using words that might offend the said person.' and I immediately recognised the prejudice in your sentence. But ok, let's continue on to your next sentence which makes the suspect a convicted pedophile ..................

Say it's an investigation piece on a known pedophile if it will help you stay on track. Your questions are off and give the impression that you are trying to distract in place of debating.
Should you be allowed to purposefully use the word pedophile during the interview, even if it causes offence and they would prefer that you use the term 'attracted to children' in place of 'pedophile'? Should you be punished if you purposefully continue to use the word pedophile? I mean, you might be causing offence on purpose after all and that seems to matter in your argument. Would you deserve the cell next door? I wouldn't think so myself, but again, I'm checking for consistency.

For reality's sake:- How dreadful! You'd be a very poor investigator, you know. Since each case is judged individually on its own merits, nobody can be allowed to know about any previous history, so as soon as you call the suspect a pedophile or use any speech that refers to this then you've messed up your whole case. Of course, if you live in a country where crane-hang pedophiles on Fridays (whenever) you won't ever have to experience this situation. You put this scene in to an interview...... so you thought that you might be some detective? No....
For debating's sake:- Your choice of scenario, that of questioning a known pedophile, here on this thread titled 'Is Transgender a choice?' suggests that you link transgenders to pedophiles, possibly? Do you?
Is that a telling question, of yours?

Well that is just offensive! J/K
You obviously don't know me very well. Can you point to where you perceive me being sensitive? I'm literally arguing that we need to be able to offend our fellow humans, not that I am encouraging offence though, just noting the importance of it (to cut off your next off topic side question).

And now we come full circle. Would you like to criminalize speech? For example, purposely using the wrong pronoun because a person is a jerk and wants to be a jerk. Would you seek to control and dominate such a persons speech?

Where I live we have laws that do criminalise some speech, and I'm guessing that your country does as well.
If you don't like laws that control folks, then I'm at a loss as to where to suggest where you might go.

I cannot support your quest to control and dominate others and you need to amend your "Yep" above to to a "No" as you would seek to control and dominate others. I don't approve of jerks or purposeful morons for that matter, but dictators are even more distasteful... for me anyway.

I don't think that I believe you. I'm sure that you do bang the 'No Controls!' drum, until you yourself want or need the law to protect you. You see?........ Controls.

If I saw a jerk purposely using the wrong pronouns because they are trying to be hurtful, I would say something. If society (those around me) agree, we will likely make the jerk feel very small for being the jerk that they are and they will then be exposed.

That sounds like domination to me.

Perhaps they will even do some self reflecting to avoid it happening again in the future. I would not seek to put them in a cell for example because we have made being a jerk/moron a crime. That would be the greater evil IMO.

Oh come on....! Nobody would put your elderly widowed neighbour in clank because they were rude to you, nor get their neighbours on her trail.
I'm more worried about what you might say to her, surely?

[oldbadger]

Domination and control of others is mostly about interfering with them or their lives, like telling people how they should dress, behave, live and more.

Does that include legislating fines and/or prison as penalties for misgendering someone or using the wrong pronouns? This is the sort of thing one would expect in a police state.

But why would anybody do that? Mis-gender somebody? Or address them with wrong pronouns.
You would not do that, would you?

[oldbadger]

Here is another compelling video on this issue featuring a really amazing and grounded lesbian, Arielle Scarcella. But, if you don't want to watch the clip itself, I would encourage you to go to the YouTube site and read the comments left by a very diverse group of people, many directly affected by what has been happening. Very enlightening.

You do like watching 'Trigger-Nometry'........

Trans ideology is the new homophobia
So you listen to one person who suggests the above and you embrace it, or that's what it looks like.

That's a construct aimed at all transgender people as some kind of clever redirection, and it's a lie.
Just because a transgender individual has an individual preference you can't paint the transgender community with that individual's opinion.

Can't you see that?

[brunumb]

Domination and control of others is mostly about interfering with them or their lives, like telling people how they should dress, behave, live and more.

Does that include legislating fines and/or prison as penalties for misgendering someone or using the wrong pronouns? This is the sort of thing one would expect in a police state.

But why would anybody do that? Mis-gender somebody? Or address them with wrong pronouns.
You would not do that, would you?

I take it that you are therefore OK with fines and/or prison as penalties for misgendering someone or using the wrong pronouns. Very telling. How much of your personal freedoms are you going to relinquish before you come to the realisation that they are slowly being taken away?

The Canadian rugby player participating on the women's team presented as a stereotypical male displaying no female attributes. I would refer to that person as he/him without hesitation. There are obviously self-centred, narcissists taking advantage of this deranged ideology where self-identification establishes what you are. We should not be sucked into affirming the delusion that men can become women.

[brunumb]

So you listen to one person who suggests the above and you embrace it, or that's what it looks like.

Hope. Since becoming aware of the gender ideology epidemic, I have listened to countless discussions surrounding the issue. I have no beef with people who have genuine dysphoria or make the effort to live their lives as the opposite of their biological sex. But affirming the feelings of minors and pushing them into irreversible procedures is a completely different matter. You seem unable or unwilling to see the distinction.

Did you read any of the comments left under that last clip I posted? Are you able to step outside of the bubble and consider that the trans activists are destroying everything that has already been achieved for the LGB community? That is what so many are saying. These extremists have captured enough minds through intimidation and threats to believe that millions of years of evolution and thousands of years of accumulated human knowledge is wrong. Truth, however, will prevail. Sex/gender is binary and one cannot change from one to the other. All else is just role play.

[brunumb]

Just because a transgender individual has an individual preference you can't paint the transgender community with that individual's opinion.

Broaden your horizon. What exactly is the problem with the transgender community? What human rights have they been denied? Is saying that children should not be given puberty blockers a denial of human rights? If that is the case, then denying children anything must be a denial of human rights. I hope you understand that chemical and surgical interventions are serious actions with long term consequences that may be far worse than any alleged discomfort these children might currently be experiencing. There are NO long term studies to fall back on because this epidemic has only occurred in very recent times.