The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).
Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.
The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
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The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #661[Replying to dad1 in post #660]
You are not defending creation. You are defending a story. It has no supporting evidence. If it was presented to you as an argument from a scientific point of view, you would rightly dismiss it. As much as you continue to deny it, we have accumulated mountains of data, information and evidence for the numerous scientific theories that have been proposed in the last few centuries. They have not been refuted. Denial is merely an admission of a closed mind. You continually mock the conclusions of millions of people who have worked over many centuries gathering the mountains of information and knowledge about our world. In return you present us with nothing more than a few pages of anonymous speculation from ancient, primitive people. Creationism does not succeed if we are unable to disprove it. Creationism fails if you do not succeed in proving it.
You are not defending creation. You are defending a story. It has no supporting evidence. If it was presented to you as an argument from a scientific point of view, you would rightly dismiss it. As much as you continue to deny it, we have accumulated mountains of data, information and evidence for the numerous scientific theories that have been proposed in the last few centuries. They have not been refuted. Denial is merely an admission of a closed mind. You continually mock the conclusions of millions of people who have worked over many centuries gathering the mountains of information and knowledge about our world. In return you present us with nothing more than a few pages of anonymous speculation from ancient, primitive people. Creationism does not succeed if we are unable to disprove it. Creationism fails if you do not succeed in proving it.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #662In your opinion, for what that is worth, yes. The reality of the situation is the God has proven Himself and Scripture true in a plethora of ways to as many as called out to Him sincerely. I know, I am one of them. The truth is that belief based origin theories are stories. Literally. Really.
. Just because poor little so called science cannot deal with any aspect of creation does not mean that there was no creation. You attempt to shoehorn all that is real or true into the little box of science. If it doesn't fit, you guys wave it away thinking you are justified. All you are actually doing is being narrow minded and religious and insisting that all other beliefs must be waved away! How small. How wrong. How pitiful. Lurkers, beware of such debilitating effects of so called science!It has no supporting evidence
. Impossible, science is completely unable to deal with any aspect of God or creation. Period. No one can present it as a scientific argument or dismiss it with science. All you can try to do is wave it away as unacceptable in the so called science little sandbox..as if that mattered at all anymore.If it was presented to you as an argument from a scientific point of view, you would rightly dismiss it
Yes, and ALL of the theories regarding origins rest on beliefs and nothing else. There is no evidence that requires your beliefs to interpret it any more than my beliefs. Period.As much as you continue to deny it, we have accumulated mountains of data, information and evidence for the numerous scientific theories that have been proposed in the last few centuries.
Your beliefs need no refutation of course any more than Pinocchio does. What is based on nothing but faith needs nothing to refute it. No one denies science is replete with fables coming out of it's wazoo. What can be refuted is any attempt to claim these fables are fact or that they are not faith based. That is easy, all we need is some poster to stop spam posting and cheer leading belief based theories and try to support them. The rest is child's play.They have not been refuted. Denial is merely an admission of a closed mind.
The basis of conclusion is what matters. Since they have only beliefs, it is impossible not to mock the fraud taking place. It would also be dishonest and immoral NOT to.You continually mock the conclusions of millions of people who have worked over many centuries gathering the mountains of information and knowledge about our world.
I do not need to present other beliefs. All we need here is to expose that you have beliefs and nothing but beliefs concerning anything to do with Genesis or God or creation.In return you present us with nothing more than a few pages of anonymous speculation from ancient, primitive people.
It already is a success. It did or does not become a success by having disciples of your religion bless it!Creationism does not succeed if we are unable to disprove it.
Science does not cover it in any way and cannot be used in proving it (as if science was about proof). The proofs man does abound with are all rejected by men of the so called science cloth, because they have no ability to know either way. None.Creationism fails if you do not succeed in proving it.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #663Then quit asking me to do just that.dad1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:35 pmI never expected you to be able to support the beliefs of science.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:39 pm What part of SITE RULES INDICATE I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE TO SUPPORT CLAIMS I DO NOT MAKE are you failing to comprehend?
Since none have shown Genesis to be an accurate record of 'creation', I don't understand your issue here. Best we have are offsetting unproven claims.dad1 wrote: What are you missing here? You can't. Remember also to make no claims that creation as per Genesis is not true also of course.
My contention is that you've admitted, yourself, that you can't present scientifically rigorous data in support of your various challenged claims within this thread.dad1 wrote: Maybe find something you can support and stick to that, and post it. We wait.
Would you like for me to support my contention?
...
You've admitted, yourself, that you can't present scientifically rigorous evidence for your various challenged claims within this thread.dad1 wrote:Do support only what you can and what you do claim. By the way, since it is not what science claims (such as about origins) what pray tell is it if anything you do say or claim??JK wrote: You've done nothing but libel folks and try to get me to support claims I do not make, all the while admitting you can't put truth to the claims you've been challenged to support.
Do you request I support this claim?
Firstly, do you deny that liars lie? Do you deny that preachers preach? You see, my use of that term is specifically used to draw out those folks who think it's an accusation that they lie, instead of accusing em of being preachers. Looking to the definitions, preaching is not explicitly a bad thing, but can indicate a lesser level of scientific rigor in one's words and such.dad1 wrote:That is rich from someone misusing the word libel.JK wrote: The liar lies and the preacher preaches.
That said, would you like me to support my claim that using such terms as, "pretending", or "ignoring" evidence or such, which you've used in this thread, are used in a libelous manner?
What is so problematic about just fessing your claims don't meet scientific standards, and just retracting those claims? What is it with this... this... this continued assault on science, when you seek the cover of science for your preaching?
Is it that some theists simply lack that smidgen of honor to say, "I retract that claim"?
Heck, I hereby, forthwith, and if it hairlips the gov'nor, retract, disavow, or trashicate, each and every claim of every scientist that ever claimed them a claim.
How does my eliminating the entire record of scientific progress help us to find scientifically rigorous support for claims of gods, and Adams, and Genesis, and creations, and all such manner of religious gooficity?
Who here ain't ever had to say, "I was wrong about that"?
What is it with some theists who simply can't let go of claims they have themselves admitted fail scientific rigor, but would attempt to continue to somehow support em under the flag of a science based section of this site?
"Science can't help me support my claims" is the single easiest way to understand that such claims should not be presented in a scientific forum.
Such attempts at seeking the imprimatur of science is no better'n a flat earther declaring they have evidence that spans the globe.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #664Is that an admission that you can't support science claims that run contrary to the record of Genesis? If so, what is it exactly you do want to say?
They have. By history and miracles and prophesy and changed lives etc. There is no better support. Science is not able to speak to the issue either way, so whatever support you want for the record seems to be anything but what exists? Nothing exists from science that can even deal with it.Since none have shown Genesis to be an accurate record of 'creation',
The claims of science are the issue here. Not sure what your claims are.I don't understand your issue here. Best we have are offsetting unproven claims.
No, I have shown that science is sidelined on the issue entirely. Unless you show support for science claims about origins, then the verdict is in. Asking for science when there can be no science is like asking for Frankenstein to come and testify, and it he doesn't show up, then Genesis must be false! Total canard.My contention is that you've admitted, yourself, that you can't present scientifically rigorous data in support of your various challenged claims within this thread.
We would like you to pick a side. Science of God. If you choose science then you must support it. Not sure what you think you are doing?Would you like for me to support my contention?
..
No more or less than you cannot present non existent scientifically rigorous claims for the anti Genesis claims of science. Since there IS no science it is not honest to raise up science on some pedestal as if it is needed to be presented. We might as well present the invisible man!You've admitted, yourself, that you can't present scientifically rigorous evidence for your various challenged claims within this thread.
The issue is whether you know truth from lies to be able to tell the difference.Firstly, do you deny that liars lie?
They sure do here, preaching about how science knows about origins. All based on nothing.Do you deny that preachers preach?
It is a bad thing when preachers do not admit what they are or that they do have faith rather than science.You see, my use of that term is specifically used to draw out those folks who think it's an accusation that they lie, instead of accusing em of being preachers. Looking to the definitions, preaching is not explicitly a bad thing, but can indicate a lesser level of scientific rigor in one's words and such.
Word saladThat said, would you like me to support my claim that using such terms as, "pretending", or "ignoring" evidence or such, which you've used in this thread, are used in a libelous manner?
The claims of science do not meet any standard but faith regarding origins. Pretending there is anything else while never posting it is hypocritical.What is so problematic about just fessing your claims don't meet scientific standards,
No I uncover their preaching!and just retracting those claims? What is it with this... this... this continued assault on science, when you seek the cover of science for your preaching?
The theory of evolution and the big bang?Heck, I hereby, forthwith, and if it hairlips the gov'nor, retract, disavow, or trashicate, each and every claim of every scientist that ever claimed them a claim.
Nothing to eliminate. There was no progress by science on Genesis issues. Ever. Nor will there ever be.How does my eliminating the entire record of scientific progress help us to find scientifically rigorous support for claims of gods, and Adams, and Genesis, and creations, and all such manner of religious gooficity?
If a theist though there was scientific rigor to begin with about Genesis they were wrong.What is it with some theists who simply can't let go of claims they have themselves admitted fail scientific rigor, but would attempt to continue to somehow support em under the flag of a science based section of this site?
"Science can't help me support my claims" is the single easiest way to understand that such claims should not be presented in a scientific forum.
You have supported nothing and offered nothing and yet imagine that any who do not agree blindly must be flat earthers. Not an honest position.Such attempts at seeking the imprimatur of science is no better'n a flat earther declaring they have evidence that spans the globe.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #665Site rules indicate I'm not responsible for claims I don't make.
Snip remainder so you can concentrate on this one lesson.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #666[Replying to dad1 in post #662]
Nothing but a dance of denial. No substance. No evidence for creation. Just fingers-in-the-ear la-la-la denial of indisputable facts. Can you actually demonstrate that your God exists and that he did some magic stuff to create the universe or do we have to accept it all on faith. Faith that lets one believe in what is false just as much as in what is true. Can you actually refute any of the science? I doubt it since you've presented absolutely nothing on that front. Meanwhile, simply denying science doesn't make any of your beliefs true.
Nothing but a dance of denial. No substance. No evidence for creation. Just fingers-in-the-ear la-la-la denial of indisputable facts. Can you actually demonstrate that your God exists and that he did some magic stuff to create the universe or do we have to accept it all on faith. Faith that lets one believe in what is false just as much as in what is true. Can you actually refute any of the science? I doubt it since you've presented absolutely nothing on that front. Meanwhile, simply denying science doesn't make any of your beliefs true.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #667There is no record of creation. No eyewitnesses. Pure speculation. Miracles and prophecy and changed lives are completely irrelevant as evidence of the creation event. Science does not speak of creation because its purpose is not to investigate this alleged supernatural event. The scientific method involves collecting and testing information that leads to a better understanding of our world. If the outcome of that leaves Genesis wanting, then the problem lies with Genesis and not with the science. All you need to do is refute the science and demonstrate the truth of Genesis. Simply denying the facts achieves nothing and highlights the paucity of evidence for the biblical claims.dad1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:26 pmJoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:03 pm Since none have shown Genesis to be an accurate record of 'creation',
They have. By history and miracles and prophesy and changed lives etc. There is no better support. Science is not able to speak to the issue either way, so whatever support you want for the record seems to be anything but what exists? Nothing exists from science that can even deal with it.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #668Not sure what you are 'debating' about then if you do not agree with the claims of science and make no effort to support them?JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:47 pm Site rules indicate I'm not responsible for claims I don't make.
Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #669Why pretend that science has anything to deny or even say about Genesis or Good or creation? It doesn't. Not a word. Now we should be seeing you post something that you think I denied. Ha
Not from science just as there is no evidence against creation. Science is irrelevant on all issues of origins! The real evidence is outside the puddle of science and science denies and ignores it. There is no substance to the empty baseless faith claims of science on Genesis. None.No substance. No evidence for creation.
Post such a fact then. Cat got your tongue? Or maybe you want to pretend you already did?? Why deny the fact you did not, and will not and cannot? What sort of debilitating effect prevents you from doing the obvious?Just fingers-in-the-ear la-la-la denial of indisputable facts.
Who could demonstrate to three monkeys with their ears blocked that you could sing? No more could we demonstrate to sidelined science that what they wave away and refuse to look at or hear is real. The demo happens to people who listen and look and desire truth. Not to those who flee truth like a plague.Can you actually demonstrate that your God exists and that he did some magic stuff to create the universe or do we have to accept it all on faith.
Not real faith! Real faith is built on something, not the nothing that the faith of so called science is resting on.Faith that lets one believe in what is false just as much as in what is true.
Can you post any? What science deals with creation or God exactly?? Try to fight that debilitating effect of false science and admit that there is no science that deals with that. Why pretend?Can you actually refute any of the science?
There is no science anyone did or could present since science is small and totally incapable of dealing with God or creation. History and Scripture and the experience or believers the world over and spanning all history were presented to man. All so called science disciples need to do is take the fingers out of the ears and want to find truth.I doubt it since you've presented absolutely nothing on that front.
Denying that there is no science that deals with God or creation does not make them false. Nor does waving away anything that you do not like or know about make your faith stories true.
Meanwhile, simply denying science doesn't make any of your beliefs true.
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Re: The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally
Post #670What specific claims of science are you challenging dad1?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.