If you accept microevolution

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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jamesmorlock
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If you accept microevolution

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Simply because they are identical.

Consider an analogy:

Imagine that you can travel across the universe by walking. You have an infinite amount of time to do this, but you must make your journey by taking small steps. You have no destination, but you can go anywhere and you must never stop walking.

A thousand years pass. Where are you now? Further.
A million years pass. Where are you now? Even Further.
A billion years pass. Where are you now? Far, far away.

For every iteration of time, you will have traveled further and further. It is inevitable, for every small step takes you further. It is not possible to not travel far.

Microevolution is the small step. Macroevolution is the collective of small steps over a large period of time.

When walking for billions of years, how can you not be far away from your starting point?
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by John Bauer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:55 pm
I do not believe evolution is a viable scientific theory, for reasons previously mentioned.
The issue of its viability is a related but separate question. Evolution is, I said, a properly scientific theory. And when you're the only contestant, it's not hard to come in first place.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:55 pm
Well, I doubt a "vast majority" of Christians accept the ToE.
First, I didn't say the "vast majority of Christians" accept the theory of evolution. I said "most" of them do because, well, most of them do—roughly 76% on average, according to the Pew Research Center.

Second, atheists are a minority—around 7% (more or less)—so by ignoring theistic views on evolution you're missing "the vast majority of those who accept it."

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:55 pm
Evolution is much easier to except (imo), if there was a divine hand behind it. Certainly, a reptile can evolve into a bird if God ordained it to be the case. The question then becomes: Did God ordain it to be the case? I say no.
And I say yes. But that's a product of my view on the sovereignty of God. If it happens, God ordained it. Nothing escapes his notice, and nothing purposeless happens. (But that's theology and so belongs in a different subforum.)

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:55 pm
The beef [that I have with the concept of theistic evolution] is the fact that I don't believe that God created species the way that theistic evolutionists believe. If this is being taught in Churches (which I doubt), then it is a false teaching—and I am against false doctrine.
1. The statistical data show that most Christian churches—Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant (including evangelicals)—support or accept theistic evolution (around 76% on average).

2. Given your statements about dogs reproducing dogs (when talking about evolution), I sincerely doubt you know what theistic evolutionists believe.

3. When is something a "false teaching"? When it contradicts Scripture? Church tradition? Your personal beliefs?

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Re: If you accept microevolution

Post #352

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am
The issue of its viability is a related but separate question. Evolution is, I said, a properly scientific theory.
And as I said, it isn't.



John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am
First, I didn't say the "vast majority of Christians" accept the theory of evolution. I said "most" of them do because, well, most of them do—roughly 76% on average, according to the Pew Research Center.
First, 76% is the vast majority. Second, if the PRC is to be believed, then fine. I disagree with the 76%.
John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am Second, atheists are a minority—around 7% (more or less)—so by ignoring theistic views on evolution you're missing "the vast majority of those who accept it."
I am not missing them, I am disagreeing with them.

John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am
And I say yes. But that's a product of my view on the sovereignty of God. If it happens, God ordained it. Nothing escapes his notice, and nothing purposeless happens. (But that's theology and so belongs in a different subforum.)
Then we are in agreement, if it happens, God ordained it. That is certainly a compromise I can live with.
John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am
1. The statistical data show that most Christian churches—Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant (including evangelicals)—support or accept theistic evolution (around 76% on average).
Again, those 76% are folks who believe that God ordained evolution...and although I disagree with them, that isn't where my beef lies. My beef is with those who believe that evolution is true without a divine orchestrator.
John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am 2. Given your statements about dogs reproducing dogs (when talking about evolution)
Which is a true statement, btw.
John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am , I sincerely doubt you know what theistic evolutionists believe.
Theistic evolutionists are theists, who believe in evolution. Is that in the ballpark?
John Bauer wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:16 am 3. When is something a "false teaching"? When it contradicts Scripture? Church tradition? Your personal beliefs?
Depends. Church tradition may/may not contradict Scripture. My personal beliefs may/may not contradict Scripture.

Those who are genuine, they read and interpret the Scripture as they see fit...and once they draw certain conclusions, anything that contradicts their conclusions also contradicts the Scriptures (according to them).

So, evolution contradicts my reasoning of the Scriptures...but whether or not a Christian accepts/rejects the ToE has no barren as to whether or not they are saved, nor does it violate any other central doctrine of Christianity.
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Re: If you accept microevolution

Post #353

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:02 pm
Then consider this 2018 poll.

At the very best, only 38% who identified as white evangelical Protestants bought into creationism, while a huge majority of other Christians think evolution is the reason for the diversity of life on the planet.
Considering that Christians make up 65% of the US population, this comes down to 4.57 times as many us Christians believe in evolution as those believing in creationism. OR creationists make up only 21.88 % of the Christian population while evolutionists make up 78.2 %, which I would say qualifies as the "vast" majority.

Creationism just ain't selling.


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You do realize that theistic evolution is still creationism, correct?
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:21 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:02 pm
Then consider this 2018 poll.

At the very best, only 38% who identified as white evangelical Protestants bought into creationism, while a huge majority of other Christians think evolution is the reason for the diversity of life on the planet.
Considering that Christians make up 65% of the US population, this comes down to 4.57 times as many us Christians believe in evolution as those believing in creationism. OR creationists make up only 21.88 % of the Christian population while evolutionists make up 78.2 %, which I would say qualifies as the "vast" majority.

Creationism just ain't selling.


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You do realize that theistic evolution is still creationism, correct?
Not in my book, or in that of others.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary creationism, or God-guided evolution are views that regard religious teachings about God as compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not in itself a scientific theory, but a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs in contrast to special creation views. Theistic evolutionists accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution.
Source: Wikipedia


It's not the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation,


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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:11 pm
Not in my book, or in that of others.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary creationism, or God-guided evolution are views that regard religious teachings about God as compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not in itself a scientific theory, but a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs in contrast to special creation views. Theistic evolutionists accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution.
Source: Wikipedia
It's not the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation,
Reading comprehension is important here.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary CREATIONISM".

And..

"....or God-GUIDED evolution".

Please, simply retract your earlier assessments and lets just move on with our lives, shall we?
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by Difflugia »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:21 pmYou do realize that theistic evolution is still creationism, correct?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pmReading comprehension is important here.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary CREATIONISM".
What does that even buy you? A slippery slope with an implied tu quoque? Theistic evolutionists may have damp shoes, but that doesn't mean they're obligated to help bail out somebody else's foundering ship.
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:07 pm What does that even buy you? A slippery slope with an implied tu quoque? Theistic evolutionists may have damp shoes, but that doesn't mean they're obligated to help bail out somebody else's foundering ship.
LOL. That was kind of funny...even though that is not what is going on here, but funny, nevertheless.
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:48 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:11 pm
Not in my book, or in that of others.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary creationism, or God-guided evolution are views that regard religious teachings about God as compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not in itself a scientific theory, but a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs in contrast to special creation views. Theistic evolutionists accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution.
Source: Wikipedia
It's not the belief that the universe and living organisms originate from specific acts of divine creation,
Reading comprehension is important here.

"Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary CREATIONISM".
It certainly is, particularly the part about them, theistic evolution in particular, which is the term we're talking about here, being

" compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. You do understand what this means don't you? If not, let me clarify. It means that theistic evolution agrees that biological evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.

AND

"Theistic evolution [being] but a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs in contrast to special creation views."

AND THAT

"Theistic evolutionists accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution[/color]. "

However, I recognize your need to ignore these bothersome clarifications and proceed on as if they never existed.
Please, simply retract your earlier assessments. . . .
Why in the world would I retract my earlier assessment? If, according to the Wikipedia article, theistic evolution doesn't agree that biological evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth, please point it out. OR that special creation views don't stand in contrast to theistic evolution [being] a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs, please point it out. OR that theistic evolutionists don't accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution, please point it out.
and lets just move on with our lives, shall we?
Which I assume you mean to say, "Stop bringing up embarrassing issues and go bother someone else. " :mrgreen:



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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm

It certainly is, particularly the part about them, theistic evolution in particular, which is the term we're talking about here, being

" compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. You do understand what this means don't you? If not, let me clarify. It means that theistic evolution agrees that biological evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.
Bro, it is still creationism though...and I won't entertain this any longer because to do so will be an insult to my own intelligence, if anything.

You can certainly have the last word here.
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Re: If you accept microevolution

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Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:12 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:49 pm

It certainly is, particularly the part about them, theistic evolution in particular, which is the term we're talking about here, being

" compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. You do understand what this means don't you? If not, let me clarify. It means that theistic evolution agrees that biological evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.
Bro, it is still creationism though...and I won't entertain this any longer because to do so will be an insult to my own intelligence, if anything.

You can certainly have the last word here.
Then for the sake of any on-lookers I will have the last word.

In light of the foregoing where the term "theistic evolution," is defined as "compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution" and that its proponents "accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution," AND, that "special creation views stand in contrast to how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs," BUT THEN contend that "it is still creationism though" is quite sad. Reminds me of intractable flat-earthers.



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