Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

[bluethread]

I pretty much stay away from this thread, because I believe that scientifically proving the details of historical events is a fools errand. However, examining claims that certain things are scientifically impossible can have value. A case in point is a recent examination of previous discoveries discarded due to archeological orthodoxy.

Most archeologists and even many rabbis, reject the idea that Yoseph ever existed and Israel originated from a population of Semitic people who were delivered from slavery in Egypt and effected a conquest of the land of Canaan. However, upon closer examination it has been proposed that, like the location of Mt. Sinai, the reason why no evidence of such things have not been found was because archeologists were looking in the wrong place, based on orthodoxy and not scientific skepticism.

patternsofevidence.com (also available on Netflix)

The thesis is that, based on the references to the region and city of Rameses, archeologists erroneously presumed that Israel was delivered in the time of Ramesses the Great. However, those references might have been inserted in the text for the sake of the reader at a later date. Though there is no significant population of Semites in Egypt at the time of Ramesses the Great, there is evidence of a significant number of Semites and a swift departure of same in the middle kingdom, some 500 years earlier. Now, there is more to the thesis than that and I am not addressing the grandeur of the miracles on this thread. The only question is does this put to rest the assertion that there is no historical basis for Yoseph, the deliverance from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan?

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 35 by bluethread]

The size of the group and the period of time would dictate the presence of (at least) one fire pit in every 200 sq. meters of the Sinai. The survival of fire pits from that period in the Nile Delta, from that time, helps to make my point: the Exodus is a fable, there is NO evidence. Scattered fire pits are to be expected ... it is the absence of the required quantity that puts the lie to the story.

These people aren't even in the Sinai. Maybe you should reread the OP, we are talking about the settlements in the Nile delta. Where did these people come from and where did they go? The time in Sinai is not even addressed. It is interesting that, when certain "acceptable" theories are discussed, the fact that there are questions regarding how those theories fit in the grand scheme of things is not relevant. However, when it comes to other theories every detail must be nailed down. Such is the nature of scientific humanism.

I beg to differ with you, the items in red clearly refer to the Exodus, or to Sinai, or to the effective use of archaeological evidence.

I pretty much stay away from this thread, because I believe that scientifically proving the details of historical events is a fools errand. However, examining claims that certain things are scientifically impossible can have value. A case in point is a recent examination of previous discoveries discarded due to archeological orthodoxy.

Most archeologists and even many rabbis, reject the idea that Yoseph ever existed and Israel originated from a population of Semitic people who were delivered from slavery in Egypt and effected a conquest of the land of Canaan. However, upon closer examination it has been proposed that, like the location of Mt. Sinai, the reason why no evidence of such things have not been found was because archeologists were looking in the wrong place, based on orthodoxy and not scientific skepticism.

patternsofevidence.com (also available on Netflix)

The thesis is that, based on the references to the region and city of Rameses, archeologists erroneously presumed that Israel was delivered in the time of Ramesses the Great. However, those references might have been inserted in the text for the sake of the reader at a later date. Though there is no significant population of Semites in Egypt at the time of Ramesses the Great, there is evidence of a significant number of Semites and a swift departure of same in the middle kingdom, some 500 years earlier. Now, there is more to the thesis than that and I am not addressing the grandeur of the miracles on this thread. The only question is does this put to rest the assertion that there is no historical basis for Yoseph, the deliverance from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan?

[Donray]

Why would one want to prove the Exodus story true?

All it show if it is true is that God is a vindictive, ill tempered killer. A God that kills babies for spite.

[bluethread]

[quote="H.sapiens"]

Beg all you like, but noting that there is a similar approach taken to the location of Mt. Sinai and noting a swift departure of a large number of people from Egypt, does not argue for any details, but enquires regarding them. So, you claim that there is no evidence of a large number of fire pits in the Sinai. How does that answer the questions regarding this population of Semites in Egypt?

[bluethread]

Why would one want to prove the Exodus story true?

All it show if it is true is that God is a vindictive, ill tempered killer. A God that kills babies for spite.

Since this is the S&R thread can you prove that scientifically?

[H.sapiens]

Beg all you like, but noting that there is a similar approach taken to the location of Mt. Sinai and noting a swift departure of a large number of people from Egypt, does not argue for any details, but enquires regarding them. So, you claim that there is no evidence of a large number of fire pits in the Sinai. How does that answer the questions regarding this population of Semites in Egypt?

Only by inference. If there is no sign of their leaving and they are not now there, one should wonder if they ever were.

[bluethread]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
Only by inference. If there is no sign of their leaving and they are not now there, one should wonder if they ever were.

So, the buildings just appeared and the grain grew in bags by themselves? Where is your scientific support for this wondering of yours? Sounds like you are ignoring evidence that does not line up with your preferences. Isn't that what you are accusing me of doing? Why not wonder where they went?

[DanieltheDragon]

Beg all you like, but noting that there is a similar approach taken to the location of Mt. Sinai and noting a swift departure of a large number of people from Egypt, does not argue for any details, but enquires regarding them. So, you claim that there is no evidence of a large number of fire pits in the Sinai. How does that answer the questions regarding this population of Semites in Egypt?

Pretty sure we are talking about proto-semetic speaking people not semetic. Additionally there is no indication that they were direct ancestors of Hebrew speaking people they could just as easily be Arabic ancestors.

What religion did these people follow?

What languages did they speak?

Was genetic testing done on any remains?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 34 by bluethread]

LOL, victory by disengagement - so really, find justification by my allowing you to assume your argument?

OK.

So wrapping it all up, you can use your same argument to show there were unicorns in America, but they are extinct now, and we don't understand their range or dietary habits to find them.

My Mars theory has the advantages of both explaining the 13th tribe and Martians. Can yours do that?

[H.sapiens]

Only by inference. If there is no sign of their leaving and they are not now there, one should wonder if they ever were.

So, the buildings just appeared and the grain grew in bags by themselves? Where is your scientific support for this wondering of yours? Sounds like you are ignoring evidence that does not line up with your preferences. Isn't that what you are accusing me of doing? Why not wonder where they went?

You are rather (I suspect intentionally) missing the point. Let's say we had a room with a bunch of people in it that has 4 doors, one on each side. On the north side we painted the hall coming in. We come back later, there is trash in the room, and there are no tracks in the paint. We can rather safely assume that no one exited to the north. Similarly, we can rather safely assume that the Hebrews did not exit Egypt to the north. If the Hebrews where later found to the north, it is logical to assume that they did not get there via Egypt.

[Donray]

Why would one want to prove the Exodus story true?

All it show if it is true is that God is a vindictive, ill tempered killer. A God that kills babies for spite.

Since this is the S&R thread can you prove that scientifically?

Yes, it is in the Bible. Do you believe the bible is true? You are using the bible for science so can I.