Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

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bluethread
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Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

Post #1

Post by bluethread »

I pretty much stay away from this thread, because I believe that scientifically proving the details of historical events is a fools errand. However, examining claims that certain things are scientifically impossible can have value. A case in point is a recent examination of previous discoveries discarded due to archeological orthodoxy.

Most archeologists and even many rabbis, reject the idea that Yoseph ever existed and Israel originated from a population of Semitic people who were delivered from slavery in Egypt and effected a conquest of the land of Canaan. However, upon closer examination it has been proposed that, like the location of Mt. Sinai, the reason why no evidence of such things have not been found was because archeologists were looking in the wrong place, based on orthodoxy and not scientific skepticism.

patternsofevidence.com (also available on Netflix)

The thesis is that, based on the references to the region and city of Rameses, archeologists erroneously presumed that Israel was delivered in the time of Ramesses the Great. However, those references might have been inserted in the text for the sake of the reader at a later date. Though there is no significant population of Semites in Egypt at the time of Ramesses the Great, there is evidence of a significant number of Semites and a swift departure of same in the middle kingdom, some 500 years earlier. Now, there is more to the thesis than that and I am not addressing the grandeur of the miracles on this thread. The only question is does this put to rest the assertion that there is no historical basis for Yoseph, the deliverance from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan?

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Exodus? To where?

Post #51

Post by Gracchus »

What the archaeology of "The Holy Land" shows is that the Hebrews were descendents of the Canaanite inhabitants of the land. There was no "conquest". There was no massive influx of immigrants.

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Re: Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

Post #52

Post by bluethread »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 34 by bluethread]

LOL, victory by disengagement - so really, find justification by my allowing you to assume your argument?

OK.

So wrapping it all up, you can use your same argument to show there were unicorns in America, but they are extinct now, and we don't understand their range or dietary habits to find them.

My Mars theory has the advantages of both explaining the 13th tribe and Martians. Can yours do that?
No, you can use my argument to say that evidence of unicorns should not be discarded out of hand, but should be investigated. My theory is that science is actually about looking at the evidence under examination and not discarding that evidence just because of the possible lack of evidence regarding something else that is not under consideration.

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Re: Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

Post #53

Post by bluethread »

DanieltheDragon wrote:
What religion did these people follow?

What languages did they speak?

Was genetic testing done on any remains?
Good questions. Maybe we should look into finding answers to those questions. So far, apart from you, all I have seen is arguments against things that are not being asked.

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Re: Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

Post #54

Post by bluethread »

H.sapiens wrote:
bluethread wrote:
H.sapiens wrote: Only by inference. If there is no sign of their leaving and they are not now there, one should wonder if they ever were.
So, the buildings just appeared and the grain grew in bags by themselves? Where is your scientific support for this wondering of yours? Sounds like you are ignoring evidence that does not line up with your preferences. Isn't that what you are accusing me of doing? Why not wonder where they went?
You are rather (I suspect intentionally) missing the point. Let's say we had a room with a bunch of people in it that has 4 doors, one on each side. On the north side we painted the hall coming in. We come back later, there is trash in the room, and there are no tracks in the paint. We can rather safely assume that no one exited to the north. Similarly, we can rather safely assume that the Hebrews did not exit Egypt to the north. If the Hebrews where later found to the north, it is logical to assume that they did not get there via Egypt.
You mean, if we come back a very long time later, and find that the door was left open so high winds, weather and other people had come in and out of the room from time to time? Maybe rather than saying that the people left in that room could not be the people who we later meet north of the room, we could try to find out who these people were and find out why they disappeared and where they went. Now, the latter argument is one I can consider an honest scientific argument, that seeks to find out what the evidence does say, not what it doesn't say. Seeking out what it doesn't say leads to adding presumptions like, they must have left through that hallway and that the floor was painted with paint that takes a very long time to dry, is only effected by certain foot steps and is never effected by anything else, ever. Mind you, I am not arguing for anything specific in your analogy, other than your approach to it does not seem to be a proper scientific approach.

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Post #55

Post by bluethread »

Donray wrote:
bluethread wrote:
Donray wrote: Why would one want to prove the Exodus story true?

All it show if it is true is that God is a vindictive, ill tempered killer. A God that kills babies for spite.
Since this is the S&R thread can you prove that scientifically?
Yes, it is in the Bible. Do you believe the bible is true? You are using the bible for science so can I.
No, I am not. On this thread, I have not argued that anything is true because the Scriptures say so. If I had, anyone could have pointed out that the Scriptures are not considered authoritative on this thread. So, shall we stick to the science and the evidence at hand.

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Re: Exodus? To where?

Post #56

Post by bluethread »

Gracchus wrote: What the archaeology of "The Holy Land" shows is that the Hebrews were descendents of the Canaanite inhabitants of the land. There was no "conquest". There was no massive influx of immigrants.
You are making three assertions here. This thread is about the Semites that inhabited the Nile delta during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom. Therefore, we will need to connect these assertions with that topic. So, let's begin by fleshing out those assertions. First, are you saying that the ethnicity of the inhabitance of what has come to be called Canaan, was significantly different from the Akkadian's, who established Babylon? Second, are you saying that there is no archeological evidence of besieged cities in what is called Canaan? Third, if an invading army was genetically similar to the conquered people, how would one determine that there was no change in the population?

That said, I am not looking to nail things down here, because, as I said before, I think that is a fool's errand. All I am really interested in is addressing whether the "no evidence" assertion is a valid argument, or just a non sequitur, designed to impede further investigation.

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Re: Exodus? To where?

Post #57

Post by Donray »

bluethread wrote:
Gracchus wrote: What the archaeology of "The Holy Land" shows is that the Hebrews were descendents of the Canaanite inhabitants of the land. There was no "conquest". There was no massive influx of immigrants.
You are making three assertions here. This thread is about the Semites that inhabited the Nile delta during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom. Therefore, we will need to connect these assertions with that topic. So, let's begin by fleshing out those assertions. First, are you saying that the ethnicity of the inhabitance of what has come to be called Canaan, was significantly different from the Akkadian's, who established Babylon? Second, are you saying that there is no archeological evidence of besieged cities in what is called Canaan? Third, if an invading army was genetically similar to the conquered people, how would one determine that there was no change in the population?

That said, I am not looking to nail things down here, because, as I said before, I think that is a fool's errand. All I am really interested in is addressing whether the "no evidence" assertion is a valid argument, or just a non sequitur, designed to impede further investigation.
Why don't you provide some evidence to support what you think? By the why, besides thing a movie like the Load of the Rings show what really happened. What is it exactly evidence do want to discuss the is related to the Bible and Exodus?

Thus far you have not stated what this is true form a movie that was made to make money.

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Re: Yoseph and The Departure from Egypt

Post #58

Post by H.sapiens »

bluethread wrote:
H.sapiens wrote:
bluethread wrote:
H.sapiens wrote: Only by inference. If there is no sign of their leaving and they are not now there, one should wonder if they ever were.
So, the buildings just appeared and the grain grew in bags by themselves? Where is your scientific support for this wondering of yours? Sounds like you are ignoring evidence that does not line up with your preferences. Isn't that what you are accusing me of doing? Why not wonder where they went?
You are rather (I suspect intentionally) missing the point. Let's say we had a room with a bunch of people in it that has 4 doors, one on each side. On the north side we painted the hall coming in. We come back later, there is trash in the room, and there are no tracks in the paint. We can rather safely assume that no one exited to the north. Similarly, we can rather safely assume that the Hebrews did not exit Egypt to the north. If the Hebrews where later found to the north, it is logical to assume that they did not get there via Egypt.
You mean, if we come back a very long time later, and find that the door was left open so high winds, weather and other people had come in and out of the room from time to time? Maybe rather than saying that the people left in that room could not be the people who we later meet north of the room, we could try to find out who these people were and find out why they disappeared and where they went. Now, the latter argument is one I can consider an honest scientific argument, that seeks to find out what the evidence does say, not what it doesn't say. Seeking out what it doesn't say leads to adding presumptions like, they must have left through that hallway and that the floor was painted with paint that takes a very long time to dry, is only effected by certain foot steps and is never effected by anything else, ever. Mind you, I am not arguing for anything specific in your analogy, other than your approach to it does not seem to be a proper scientific approach.
No that is not what I mean, that is how you would like to warp it. Sorry ... I'm not playing that game.

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Post #59

Post by Kenisaw »

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism ... appen.aspx

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4191

Couple of interesting articles about the lack of evidence for the Exodus. To be fair to Bluethread, here is also one that would be supportive of some of his comments:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713849

I'm still trying to vet all of the information in these links, but if someone can comment on them please do so.

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Re: Exodus? To where?

Post #60

Post by bluethread »

Donray wrote:
Why don't you provide some evidence to support what you think? By the why, besides thing a movie like the Load of the Rings show what really happened. What is it exactly evidence do want to discuss the is related to the Bible and Exodus?

Thus far you have not stated what this is true form a movie that was made to make money.
Casting aspersions based the inferred intent of a presentation is fallacious. Degrasse Tyson and Stephen Hawking do not work free. The theory has been presented in the OP link.

So I can avoid running a fowl of the site one liner rules, let me note here that Kenisaw is spot on. One does not have to believe that the evidence is valid. However, it is not consistent with what people here claim as proper science to reject the evidence out of hand.

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