The Solar Eclipse: Coincidence? Or Evidence of Design?

[Volbrigade]

Here in the US, many people are eagerly awaiting the opportunity to observe a total solar eclipse. 14 million people reside in the path of totality. Many more are well within 90% of totality. The entire lower 48 will experience a degree of partiality.

Prompted by an PM exchange with another user, I am reminded of the astronomically small odds that the disc of the moon would fit precisely over the disc of the sun, relative to an observer on earth. This phenomenon allows for observation of the sun’s corona, which is otherwise undetectable to the naked eye. The observation and analysis of the corona led to advancements in the field of spectroscopy by Bunsen, Kirchhoff, Jansen, Huggins, Lockyear, and others. Those advancements, in turn, led to discoveries in astrophysics which have formed our current understanding(s) of the cosmos in which we exist.

Which begs an intriguing question. Is the precise matching of the diameter of the sun and moon, relative to the Earth, just another one of those “happy accidents� — a coincidence, comparable in scale to the probability of select amino acids linking up by chance to form proteins, which in turn link together to form a self-replicating code of protein “letters�, in the precise order necessary to code for a living cell, in Earth’s harsh primordial environment, 5 billion years or so ago? And those codes increasing in information content, through unguided cause-and-effect processes, in order to provide the blueprints for all living things?

A coincidence, like the simultaneous linkages of dimensionless constants — e.g., gravity, strong and weak force, electromagnetism — which provide the appearance of “fine tuning� the parameters of the universe? Of which incremental changes to would produce an environment too unstable for the periodic table, and thus the universe as we know it, to exist?

I’m sure the reader can see where I’m going with this. What if the appearance of “fine tuning� is related to the REALITY of fine tuning, by an Agent possessing mind, intelligence, and will, and which exists outside of the space time continuum which is Its (or “His�) creation?

And what if that Agent adjusted countless variables — i.e., the constants referred to; along with such physical factors as solar size, distance from star, axial tilt, position in a “clear� region of its galaxy, etc. — on one particular, specific planet, in order to generate an environment where intelligent life could not only exist, but have a sense of the scope of the cosmos in which it exists?

And what if the synchronicity displayed in a solar eclipse is not mere coincidence, but a deliberate design? The discoveries made possible by it, which have informed our astrophysical awareness, an indication that this universe is “designed� — by its Creator — “to be discovered�?

[Volbrigade]

The two options you presented are not exhaustive. You are missing the other mindless, but non-random option.

I am missing it, because it does not exist.

Then what would you call my counter-example RE: two people turning up without planning to meet up, yet there was 100% chance that they meet up because that's what they always do?

Deliberate. Volitional. The opposite of "mindless".

[Volbrigade]

So that is the most likely area where we will part ways, as I do not consider the bible to be the truth...

Indeed it is.

I would even go a step further, and suggest that the dividing line between us is The Resurrection. To me, it is the center point of all "His"-story, human and natural. I suspect that to you, it is a fabrication or myth.

I wish you well on your journey, and gently suggest that you don't trade a version of reality that conforms to your desires and preferences, for the version of reality as it truly is -- which includes an empty tomb on the Sunday following the Passover and Crucifixion.

[William]

[Replying to post 102 by Volbrigade]

Indeed it is.

And yet you are unable to prove that it is.

I would even go a step further, and suggest that the dividing line between us is The Resurrection. To me, it is the center point of all "His"-story, human and natural. I suspect that to you, it is a fabrication or myth.

Likely fabrication borrowed from more ancient mythology and reconstituted to fit the day. See for example, the Greek God Dionysus.

There is no particular reason that I need to believe in the resurrection story in relation to my being willing or able to behave in a kindly manner toward my fellow human beings. Such belief is besides the point.

Christianity is an invention or Roman elitism so it is no surprise that old mythology would be merged together to produce something that the masses could sink their teeth into and accept as legitimate truth.

I wish you well on your journey, and gently suggest that you don't trade a version of reality that conforms to your desires and preferences, for the version of reality as it truly is -- which includes an empty tomb on the Sunday following the Passover and Crucifixion.

Oh the irony! 'The version of reality as it truly is" is Roman fabrication and is believed by many precisely because they "traded a version of reality for something which conforms to their desires and preferences!".

The problem with organised religion is dogmatism and the problem with dogmatism is that it creates a bog in which the oblivious are stuck within.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 102 by Volbrigade]

Indeed it is.

And yet you are unable to prove that it is.

"Indeed it is..." the area in which we disagree. I am agreeing with you. I won't bother trying to prove it.

I would even go a step further, and suggest that the dividing line between us is The Resurrection. To me, it is the center point of all "His"-story, human and natural. I suspect that to you, it is a fabrication or myth.

Likely fabrication borrowed from more ancient mythology and reconstituted to fit the day. See for example, the Greek God Dionysus.

Um... does the Dionysus myth incorporate known historical figures, including local ones? Is it set in a particular time and place? Does it center on a man who is known to have lived? With a genealogy, which comes as a product of living among an established people group, who are still extant and distinct today, and re-established in their ancestral land as a nation, against all odds?

"In Christ, the myth became fact."

There is no particular reason that I need to believe in the resurrection story in relation to my being willing or able to behave in a kindly manner toward my fellow human beings. Such belief is besides the point.

Maybe true, as far as it goes.

The main reason to believe ANYTHING, imho, is if it is TRUE.

Which the Resurrection is. It is the greatest truth available to humanity.

Can you be subjectively "nice", and not accept it? Sure, I guess. Who cares?

Christianity is an invention or Roman elitism so it is no surprise that old mythology would be merged together to produce something that the masses could sink their teeth into and accept as legitimate truth.

"Roman elitism"? That would come as a bit of a surprise to the Jewish Apostles, and those converted at Pentacost; along with the all of the other Jews who were the earliest converts, and who debated at first whether Gentiles (Romans) could even join in the new faith; and then under what conditions they could join.

Jesus was a Jew. He is a racial King, in addition to being the King of Kings. The main connection between Rome and Christianity are the excellent roads and shipping and "Pax Romana" which enabled its rapid spread (God knows what He's doing); and its corruption, when it was made the compulsory state religion, in an effort to unify the crumbling Empire.

I wish you well on your journey, and gently suggest that you don't trade a version of reality that conforms to your desires and preferences, for the version of reality as it truly is -- which includes an empty tomb on the Sunday following the Passover and Crucifixion.

Oh the irony! 'The version of reality as it truly is" is Roman fabrication and is believed by many precisely because they "traded a version of reality for something which conforms to their desires and preferences!".

Not a trace irony. Only error, in your "Roman fabrication", as I just pointed out.

The problem with organised religion is dogmatism and the problem with dogmatism is that it creates a bog in which the oblivious are stuck within.

I guess you're saying I'm oblivious. What a nasty lot you vague Whateverists are. You are allergic to truth, and the symptoms of the allergy are warped pronouncements, expressing your warped mentality (Romans 1, again).

I offer you this, before I release you to your incoherency:

A good place to start, in clearing it up, is to understand that Christianity is not a religion. That is, it is not a method by which man reaches up to God. It is God reaching down to man.

There is a "Christian Religion", and it started in Rome (I'll grant you). Authentic, Biblical Christianity has nothing to do with rites, rituals, or legalism of any kind, however.

It does have central essential doctrines, that you may refer to as "dogmas", I suppose. Things which must be embraced, in order to qualify as a Christian. They are nicely captured in, e.g., The Apostle's (or Nicene) Creed.

They are faith in:

The Trinity
The Incarnation
The Virgin Birth
The Miracles
The Atonement
The Resurrection
The Second Coming

Good luck with you own subjective, cafeteria-style religion.

You'll need it.

[Bust Nak]

Deliberate. Volitional. The opposite of "mindless".

Well there you go - an unplanned meeting at a grocery store, according to you is "deliberate." Yet earlier you said "If you happen to come across each other at the grocery store, then it is "by chance." Reductio ad absurdum.

[Volbrigade]

Deliberate. Volitional. The opposite of "mindless".

Well there you go - an unplanned meeting at a grocery store, according to you is "deliberate." Yet earlier you said "If you happen to come across each other at the grocery store, then it is "by chance." Reductio ad absurdum.

Not at all.

I have company coming over. I decide to pick up a nice Cabernet on the way home. I had an appointment across town, time is short, I stop at the first supermarket (we sell beer and wine, but not spirits, in my locality) I come across. Lo and behold -- whaddaya know! -- there's ol' so-and-so, my old college chum. Haven't seen him in years! What's he doing here? Turns out, he was just popping in -- he's almost out of milk.

I would say that meeting occurs by what we call "chance".

People meeting at the same time, at the same place, on a regular basis, because each has made a determination to do so -- either for personal reasons (I always do my grocery shopping at 8am on Saturday, when the store's not crowded), or by compulsion (school, work) -- that is not chance.

I forgot -- what does this have to do with the eclipse?

Because in actuality, neither example is a product of pure chance, since there is volition and deliberateness involved. A coin toss is more related to "chance". Chances are, you flip one a million times, and you're going to come out nearly 50/50 heads/tails.

I'm not a mathematician, so I can't calculate the precise odds. But I can intuit that having two celestial objects match up like our sun and moon, in order to create the eclipse, with its visible corona effect, at a distance of 93 million miles, for the benefit of the only intelligent life in the universe -- I'd say that's a LOT of consecutive coin flips landing the same side up. Something along the lines of 10 to some power, probably double digits.

And the chance of amino acids linking to make proteins, linking to make DNA (or even RNA, both very fragile molecules), then organizing as living cells, with the necessary enzymes, etc.; and then those cells turning into sponges, worms, fish, reptiles, birds, mammals, monkeys, and finally men, by natural processes...

That's a serious of consecutive coin flips that is past the statistically absurd, and firmly in the realm of the impossible.

"There are no coincidences in God's Kingdom".

And that includes the eclipse.

[H.sapiens]

HS --

"I" -- that is, the theist/Christian -- have precisely as much, and the same, "data" as you (the atheo-materialist-Whateverist).

Then pray, present it ... else you are revealed as a liar. It can't be seen, can't be heard, can't be touched, etc. Doesn't cut it.

I have to be careful here. I don't want to overtly state that you're thick, as that is against board rules.

Not to mention false.

And I've already received a warning for dealing with your unpleasant remarks and demeanor. Such as (for all practical purposes) calling me a liar.

No, I gave you a clear alternative to being deemed a liar that you were unable to avail yourself of ... so the indictment is all of your own making.

There is a pronounced double-standard on this board, with a pro atheo-Whateverist bias.

Stange, I see a Christian bias, likely that means we are both wrong.

How you are unable to see that with regard to the physical, material, "natural" world, the data you have is precisely the data I have is... what I referred to in my last post. Romans 1.

As noted, the bias is yours, I am open to correction.

It is our belief systems that differ. You believe that the universe... just happened. Is just one of those things. Like a solar eclipse. And microbes just happen to form, and somehow become men. Or whatever it is you believe -- if you believe anything. I'm not really interested. Because whatever it is, it ain't true. Nor is it interesting.

I believe nothing, I go with the data. I claim nothing is true, but it has many times been shown that what you believe is false. We are not even in the same ball park, you're playing t-ball.

I will congratulate on your inadvertent uber-irony, by citing a Shakespeare quote that applies to the reality of the atheo-materialists' attitude toward this life. I have never seen anyone so inverted as to apply it to Christianity... I suppose I'd better let that one lie there.

You'd best, unless you are in need of further trouncing.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 106 by Volbrigade]

I'm not a mathematician, so I can't calculate the precise odds. But I can intuit that having two celestial objects match up like our sun and moon, in order to create the eclipse, with its visible corona effect, at a distance of 93 million miles, for the benefit of the only intelligent life in the universe -- I'd say that's a LOT of consecutive coin flips landing the same side up. Something along the lines of 10 to some power, probably double digits.

And you'd be dead wrong. Eclipses are perfectly predictable because they are the result of known orbital patterns of the earth and moon (not some sign by a deity, despite your imagination). Lots of people have done the calculations. A total solar eclipse visible from some point on earth happens about every 18 months. For any given point on earth it takes about 375 years for repeat total solar eclipse events:

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/how ... lipse.html

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/Books/Synt ... ode49.html

Total solar eclipses are relatively common and not some high power of 10. If you count in months, then it would be about one every 10 to the 1.26 power ... hardly anything to get excited about.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 107 by H.sapiens]

LOL. What I'm not in need of is another warning. I don't wish a suspension, for giving an unpleasant tar baby like you the punch in the nose you richly deserve. You would no doubt be insensate to the punch -- in the same way you are insensate to the fact that our shared physical reality is objectively the same for both of us; it is the explanation of it that differs (e.g., Biblical truth vs. m2m fantasizing): or your misapplication of the "tale told by an idiot" quote. And I get tar all over me. Or -- is that... tar? And... what's that smell?

It is a said state of affairs that this board, with all its shortcomings, is one of the better ones i have found for discussing these topics. And that is because of its tight moderation, which prevents me from addressing you in the terms that are warranted; but which would "eclipse" my posting privileges.

And that would not be by chance.

Now: unless you have anything else to express, besides disagreeableness, you are summarily dismissed.

One question, if I may --

why are you so unpleasant? Problems in your personal life?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 109 by Volbrigade]

It is a said state of affairs that this board, with all its drawbacks, is one of the better ones i have found for discussing these topics.

Part of the problem is that you posted the original OP in the Science and Religion section. If the only support you can offer for your idea that the eclipse is some sign by your favorite god are handwaving arguments that people are impoverished if they don't believe it, or things of that nature (all you've mustered so far), you can expect to be asked for more proof in this section of the website. Perhaps you want to try it again on one of the other sections where philosophical ideas are discussed and there is no expectation of facts or evidence.