Science and the Holocaust

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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William
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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #11

Post by William »

[Replying to post 9 by Kenisaw]
Again, scientists do NOT "(together with others) use the knowledge to create/make real those things which without, the Holocaust could not have happened." Scientists don't make things. For the umpteenth time, engineers do.

You seem determined to blame scientists for the Holocaust, and that makes zero sense.
You seem determined to think of all scientists as pure as the driven snow. Your denial as to their involvement in atrocities is unbelievable.

Do you think they were all so naive as to have no idea what they were contributing towards? Scientist get far too much special treatment from those who pay them and invest in harmful technologies. How many were paid for their contributions to the Nazi regime? Many of them were saved from prosecution by both the USSR and USA political agendas.
Scientists don't make things. For the umpteenth time, engineers do.
If you think that engineers could have accomplished what they did without the scientists, you are very mistaken.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #12

Post by Kenisaw »

William wrote: [Replying to post 9 by Kenisaw]
Again, scientists do NOT "(together with others) use the knowledge to create/make real those things which without, the Holocaust could not have happened." Scientists don't make things. For the umpteenth time, engineers do.

You seem determined to blame scientists for the Holocaust, and that makes zero sense.
You seem determined to think of all scientists as pure as the driven snow. Your denial as to their involvement in atrocities is unbelievable.
Is there a specific example that you are thinking of? In the OP it was charged that science was in the "forefront" of making the Holocaust happen. That's what we are talking about here.
Do you think they were all so naive as to have no idea what they were contributing towards? Scientist get far too much special treatment from those who pay them and invest in harmful technologies. How many were paid for their contributions to the Nazi regime? Many of them were saved from prosecution by both the USSR and USA political agendas.
Were there scientists who were members of the Nazi Party? Absolutely. Did they cause the Holocaust, or were key in making it possible? No. There's no plausibility to that claim.
Scientists don't make things. For the umpteenth time, engineers do.
If you think that engineers could have accomplished what they did without the scientists, you are very mistaken.
Never said they could accomplish anything without the scientific knowledge that has been generated. But that doesn't make a scientist responsible for what an engineer designs.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #13

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 12 by Kenisaw]


"Is there a specific example that you are thinking of? In the OP it was charged that science was in the "forefront" of making the Holocaust happen. That's what we are talking about here. "

The last one and the next one and the rest.
Some of us don't even know what all these wmd's are.
Who is responsible for creating them? Each side coming up with more modern ways
of destroying us.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #14

Post by Kenisaw »

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 12 by Kenisaw]


"Is there a specific example that you are thinking of? In the OP it was charged that science was in the "forefront" of making the Holocaust happen. That's what we are talking about here. "

The last one and the next one and the rest.
Some of us don't even know what all these wmd's are.
Who is responsible for creating them? Each side coming up with more modern ways
of destroying us.
And that's not scientists doing that. Those are engineers. We are talking about the claim that scientists were at the forefront of the Holocaust, that they discovered things so that Jews could be slaughtered en mass...

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #15

Post by William »

[Replying to post 12 by Kenisaw]

So you are a scientist and as such wish to defend your 'guild' and not think it at all possible that scientists would ever be involved with using science in order to harm others etc?

Sorry, but to claim scientists are just doing the science and are not responsible for how others might use that science, is simply denial. They are not some holy order beyond reproach or the temptations of greed and turning a blind eye.

If that is what you believe, it is delusion, and it is beyond my present capabilities to assist others in coming out from under the influence of their delusions. The best I can do is leave them to it.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #16

Post by H.sapiens »

William wrote: [Replying to post 12 by Kenisaw]

So you are a scientist and as such wish to defend your 'guild' and not think it at all possible that scientists would ever be involved with using science in order to harm others etc?

Sorry, but to claim scientists are just doing the science and are not responsible for how others might use that science, is simply denial. They are not some holy order beyond reproach or the temptations of greed and turning a blind eye.

If that is what you believe, it is delusion, and it is beyond my present capabilities to assist others in coming out from under the influence of their delusions. The best I can do is leave them to it.
Scientists are not perfect but they and other academics are the only ones I know where "internal affairs" is built right into the system and is called in to check on every completed piece of work. That does not make scientists perfect, but it does make them a damn sight better.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #17

Post by marco »

Kenisaw wrote: It was posted in another Science and Religion thread recently:
That you understand the import of your and every other individual human being on the face of the planet, that interpretation of science is not always in favor of that same importance, as - for example, the Holocaust, in which science was at the forefront making real, that imposed tragedy, and without the scientists the 'dumpsters' used to dispose of the so-called useless subjective human individual victims could never have been created for that use.
Question: Is science at all responsible for the Holocaust? Did science specifically target Jews?
Science is used in personification and normally means the body of knowledge obtained by the efforts of intelligent human beings. Such knowledge can be put to wicked use: just yesterday we had another attempt by evil individuals to kill people in London using skill in chemistry to make a bomb. Scientists in North Korea, who I suppose have little choice are moving us towards war.

So it is the abuse of science rather than its advancement that brings about evil and crime. Sometimes science does work towards creating something evil, as with the bomb that fell on Hiroshima. But I think those who worked for Hitler in the Holocaust were not serving science; they may have claimed to be doing so but they were simply the slaves of a monster and they, willingly or not, carried out atrocities. Science was not the abuser here but the abused.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #18

Post by William »

[Replying to post 17 by marco]
Science was not the abuser here but the abused.
What I said.

Science was used by the abuser.

Scientists were and are involved in that and other atrocities.

Do the scientists care? We can imagine a whole lot of poor individuals with guns to their heads tearfully towing the line in doing the science in helping to create WMDs etc for their masters who pay them penny's, hold their families hostage and squeeze out every drop of genius knwoledge they have until they have nothing left to give.

Yes we can imagine such scientists exist...

Science is only improperly abused or properly used in relation to the consciousnesses involved with its process.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #19

Post by marco »

William wrote:

Science was used by the abuser.

Scientists were and are involved in that and other atrocities.

Do the scientists care? We can imagine a whole lot of poor individuals with guns to their heads tearfully towing the line in doing the science in helping to create WMDs etc for their masters who pay them penny's, hold their families hostage and squeeze out every drop of genius knwoledge they have until they have nothing left to give.

Yes we can imagine such scientists exist...
Well we can imagine anything. I can imagine scientists working hard to find a cure for dementia or cancer. Germany used scientists to help them bomb London from a distance. Germany used doctors to experiment on people. Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland to start a dreadful war. People can use a mobile phone to do evil deeds. I can't see how the personification of science then assigning Holocaust guilt to it makes much sense. Perhaps we should blame Adam for eating a piece of fruit. That makes as much sense.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #20

Post by William »

[Replying to post 19 by marco]
Well we can imagine anything. I can imagine scientists working hard to find a cure for dementia or cancer. Germany used scientists to help them bomb London from a distance. Germany used doctors to experiment on people. Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and Poland to start a dreadful war. People can use a mobile phone to do evil deeds. I can't see how the personification of science then assigning Holocaust guilt to it makes much sense. Perhaps we should blame Adam for eating a piece of fruit. That makes as much sense.
I have never assigned guilt re the Holocaust only to scientists. What I strongly implied was that without the abuse of science, the Holocaust could not have unfolded as it did.
Those who disagree are, of course, entitled to do so. The facts do not support them.


eta

Googled: "Are engineers scientists?"
"There is considerable overlap between science and engineering, so you will find scientists who design and construct equipment and engineers who make important scientific discoveries. Information theory was founded by Claude Shannon, a theoretical engineer. Peter Debye won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry with a degree in electrical engineering and a doctorate in physics."
https://www.thoughtco.com/scientist-and ... ces-606441

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