Science and the Holocaust

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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H.sapiens
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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #31

Post by H.sapiens »

marco wrote:
William wrote: [Replying to post 28 by marco]
So we agree that Hitler and others caused the Holocaust.
That was not even part of the OP argument. It is an irrelevant comment in regard to that.
You must be one of the few people on Earth who think Hitler's contribution to the Holocaust an irrelevance. When someone declares X did it, then it is highly relevant to show that Y did it. The point you're making is artificial.
William wrote:
Where did trains come into the argument as the remote aspect of a use of science which can be connected to the Holocaust?
You see, science invented trains. So if we are trying to blame science we might as well throw in train building as contributing to the guilt. Of course the scientific community wasn't responsible for the Holocaust; wicked people in Germany were, using whatever skills they had. Think Hitler - and we can't go wrong.
Clearly we should blame it all on the cyanobacters who created the free oxygen in the atmosphere that permitted humans to evolve and produce the Third Reich.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #32

Post by William »

[Replying to post 23 by H.sapiens]

While it is not the focus of the OP specifically, it is an aspect of the overall reason for the tragedy.

[Replying to post 31 by H.sapiens]

I don't see what the process of evolution has to do with the OP subject, because there are many ways in which human thought and action could have played out to result in a different situation unfolding, than the one which did.

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Science and the Holocaust

Post #33

Post by William »

Science and the Holocaust - Evidence that scientists were involved in the Holocaust.

You Tube Video.

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marco
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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #34

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William wrote: Science and the Holocaust - Evidence that scientists were involved in the Holocaust.
This is testimony that evil men did evil things. Mengele was, incidentally, a doctor who performed wicked experiments not in the name of science but for his own purposes. Other Nazis did wicked things as well. People with degrees in science can be wicked; it is fatuous to say that when such men murder or steal or commit atrocities, then science is at fault since they are "serving" science. The Holocaust was caused by Nazi hatred of Jews and other minorities. To bring science into it is to remove the blame from the place it truly belongs.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #35

Post by William »

[Replying to post 34 by marco]
This is testimony that evil men did evil things.
This is a testimony that evil men used science to do evil things.
Mengele was, incidentally, a doctor who performed wicked experiments not in the name of science but for his own purposes.
Please explain what 'in the name of science' signifies.

As to performing wicked experiments, these were done through scientific method and were done to try and discover a way to increase birth-rates of the German population, according to the testimony.
Other Nazis did wicked things as well. People with degrees in science can be wicked; it is fatuous to say that when such men murder or steal or commit atrocities, then science is at fault since they are "serving" science.
I do not think I have ever claimed that evil actions serve science. If I have then I am happy to withdraw the statement. Please show me where I have done so.

In the meantime I will continue to argue that my focus is on science being used by scientists to serve evil intent, in that scientific method is not all about good things.

I pointed this out in another thread in which my quote from that;
That you understand the import of your and every other individual human being on the face of the planet, that interpretation of science is not always in favor of that same importance,...
is arguing that subjective experience of reality is valid, even if it is practically useless for scientific purpose. The member I was arguing with suggested that subjective experience was no more worthy of anything other than the dumpster.

as - for example, the Holocaust,
The Holocaust springs to mind because peoples subjective lives were treated as nothing more or less than worthy of 'the dumpster' ...
in which science was at the forefront making real, that imposed tragedy, and without the scientists the 'dumpsters' used to dispose of the so-called useless subjective human individual victims could never have been created for that use.
This is truth. The protest methinks comes from an overblown - almost worshipful adoration for science and scientists which prompts those holding such belief and position to defend science and scientists as some order of holy priesthood unable to be blemished in relation to their actions. That is a dangerous position to support.
The Holocaust was caused by Nazi hatred of Jews and other minorities. To bring science into it is to remove the blame from the place it truly belongs.
Not at all. Rather it is to unreservedly include and acknowledge the role of scientists and their use of scientific method as a very necessary aspect of the total reason for the tragedy of the Holocaust. To deny this is to say that the victims are wrong to mention the role science and scientists in the atrocity.

The 'place' the blame goes to is not down to one document, one man, or one type of social racism. Rather the truth of the matter is that for something of such magnitude to happen (be that good or evil) it requires the combined efforts of a large number of individuals. My mentioning scientists and scientific method as being forefront is something which should not be protested or denied. To do so is to deny the of supporting the truth.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #36

Post by marco »

William wrote:

My mentioning scientists and scientific method as being forefront is something which should not be protested or denied. To do so is to deny the of supporting the truth.
You are wrong in your conclusions about the cause of the Holocaust. It is true that millions supported Hitler and they had their reasons as history shows. The medical experiments conducted were done by people who were NOT encouraged by the scientific community, as your accusation would suggest, but by brutes intent on carrying out a genocidal mission. That many of the people involved possessed science degrees is incidental: they were not given those degrees to commit evil, as your accusation would suggest. Risibly you say they used "scientific method" to record their experiments. They were trained scientists! They used their knowledge to do evil things. Hitler used his oratorical powers to achieve evil. Does that mean we should outlaw oratory?

Shakespeare in The Merchant of Venice tells us that the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. And wicked scientists can use the skills they have acquired to do evil, just as some bombers, trained in I.T. use their scientific knowledge to kill. This does not mean we can accuse science of suicide bombing.

Your main error is that you are blaming science for the abuse of science. Simple as that.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #37

Post by William »

[Replying to post 36 by marco]
You are wrong in your conclusions about the cause of the Holocaust.
I did not say that science caused the Holocaust.

I said that science was at the forefront making real.

The person (Kenisaw) who started this thread was the one who asked "Is science at all responsible for the Holocaust? " inferring that this is what I was saying, when quoting me in the OP.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #38

Post by marco »

William wrote: [Replying to post 36 by marco]
You are wrong in your conclusions about the cause of the Holocaust.
I did not say that science caused the Holocaust.

I said that science was at the forefront making real.

The person (Kenisaw) who started this thread was the one who asked "Is science at all responsible for the Holocaust? " inferring that this is what I was saying, when quoting me in the OP.
I see. Then we can safely attribute, as reliable historians do, the awful practices in wartime Germany and its conquered states to the Nazi final solution.

Let's say amen to that.

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #39

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 35 by William]


"The Holocaust springs to mind because peoples subjective lives were treated as nothing more or less than worthy of 'the dumpster' ...

Quote:
in which science was at the forefront making real, that imposed tragedy, and without the scientists the 'dumpsters' used to dispose of the so-called useless subjective human individual victims could never have been created for that use.

This is truth. The protest methinks comes from an overblown - almost worshipful adoration for science and scientists which prompts those holding such belief and position to defend science and scientists as some order of holy priesthood unable to be blemished in relation to their actions. That is a dangerous position to support."

The German nuclear weapon project (German: Uranprojekt; informally known as the Uranverein; English: Uranium Society or Uranium Club) was a scientific effort led by Germany to develop and produce nuclear weapons during World War II. The first effort started in April 1939, just months after the discovery of nuclear fission in December 1938, but ended only months later due to the German invasion of Poland, after many notable physicists were drafted into the Wehrmacht.

A second effort began under the administrative purview of the Wehrmacht's Heereswaffenamt on 1 September 1939, the day of the Invasion of Poland. The program eventually expanded into three main efforts: the Uranmaschine (nuclear reactor), uranium and heavy water production, and uranium isotope separation. Eventually it was assessed that nuclear fission would not contribute significantly to ending the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nu ... on_project

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Re: Science and the Holocaust

Post #40

Post by Bust Nak »

William wrote: I did not say that science caused the Holocaust.

I said that science was at the forefront making real.
Trains, guns, concrete, ovens and cyanide, i.e. the things that made the Holocaust real, are hardly cutting edge science at the time. It is unfair to say science was at the forefront of making the Holocaust when it was off the shelf technologies to made it possible.

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