Conservation of energy

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The Tanager
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Conservation of energy

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Post by The Tanager »

I don't know if this should go here, because I'm not making a religious point off of this here, but it could possibly clear up some confusion in another thread.

Which of these would you say is the law of conservation of energy? Or how would you tighten the law up more?

(1) Matter/energy/mass are eternal

(2) In a closed system, the total amount of mass/energy/matter is constant or conserved. That the system does not gain or lose any energy when transformations take place within it.

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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #331

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Goat wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:00 pm Yes, entropy increases. And we assume the universe is a closed system.
And we have no reasons to think otherwise.
Goat wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:00 pm But, can you show me the experiment that verifies that assumption?
I repeat (which has been a habit):

"Just like how you know that a car that is running on gas wasn't running for an infinite amount of time, because that is impossible due to only a finite amount of gas."

Fill your car up with gas, and experience your car running out of usable energy as the gas is being depleted. Eventually, the car will stop because all of the usable energy is gone.

That is the experiment.

Again, this is one of the most understood concepts in all of science. Never failing.
Just because entropy keeps on increasing doesn't mean that we are in a closed system
The question is; how did those low entropy conditions get there in the first place. The second question is, as I stated before, if the universe was eternal, then we would have run out of usable energy a long time ago.

Well, that second part wasn't a question, but more of a point. :D
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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #332

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:17 am Closed to us, open to God.
So an open system then. The system doesn't care who it might be open to or not, it's either open or closed period. As soon as something inputs anything into the system, it's no longer closed.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:17 am You know, I am really trying hard to find a way to allow you to actually win a debate against me.

But you are making it very, very difficult. :D
Your constant bravado and thinking you are always right and winning aside, I don't care who 'wins'. I merely present ideas and point out problems for readers to consider. You seem to keep thinking there is some sort of prize or a necessity to 'win'. Every time you attempt to claim victory for yourself you merely shoot yourself in the foot for any reader that disagrees with you.

You might also want to finish reading your Bible:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV
Proverbs 11:2
New Revised Standard Version
2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace;
but wisdom is with the humble.

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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #333

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:27 pm So an open system then. The system doesn't care who it might be open to or not, it's either open or closed period. As soon as something inputs anything into the system, it's no longer closed.
If God doesn't exist, then it isn't open to anyone, and our current knowledge on the subject is just that; a closed system.

But if God does exist (on Christian theism), he isn't up there replenishing the usable energy...he can, but he wont (and isn't).

So it may as well be "closed" in the sense of what a closed system is, which is that no one is out there replenishing the energy.

Now of course you can feel free to split hairs and make a big fuss about nothing.

But I said what I said.
Your constant bravado and thinking you are always right and winning aside, I don't care who 'wins'. I merely present ideas and point out problems for readers to consider. You seem to keep thinking there is some sort of prize or a necessity to 'win'. Every time you attempt to claim victory for yourself you merely shoot yourself in the foot for any reader that disagrees with you.

You might also want to finish reading your Bible:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NRSV

Proverbs 11:2
New Revised Standard Version
2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace;
but wisdom is with the humble.
Thanks. I have a scripture for you too. Mind if I share?

John 14:6

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I didnt know you were in a scripture sharing mood.

Tell you what; for every scripture you share with me, I'll share one with you. :approve:

Cool? :D
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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #334

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:48 pm But if God does exist (on Christian theism), he isn't up there replenishing the usable energy...he can, but he wont (and isn't).

So it may as well be "closed" in the sense of what a closed system is, which is that no one is out there replenishing the energy.
Simple question: Does the Christian god ever cause anything to happen in our universe after the initial creation event?

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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #335

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:54 pm
Simple question: Does the Christian god ever cause anything to happen in our universe after the initial creation event?
Yes. God has been known to intervene in the natural world.

But those interventions have NOTHING to do with replenishing the energy, which is my only contention.

So, "Gotcha" moment; failed.
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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #336

Post by Goat »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:17 am
Goat wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:00 pm Yes, entropy increases. And we assume the universe is a closed system.
And we have no reasons to think otherwise.
Goat wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:00 pm But, can you show me the experiment that verifies that assumption?
I repeat (which has been a habit):

"Just like how you know that a car that is running on gas wasn't running for an infinite amount of time, because that is impossible due to only a finite amount of gas."

Fill your car up with gas, and experience your car running out of usable energy as the gas is being depleted. Eventually, the car will stop because all of the usable energy is gone.

That is the experiment.

Again, this is one of the most understood concepts in all of science. Never failing.
Just because entropy keeps on increasing doesn't mean that we are in a closed system
The question is; how did those low entropy conditions get there in the first place. The second question is, as I stated before, if the universe was eternal, then we would have run out of usable energy a long time ago.

Well, that second part wasn't a question, but more of a point. :D
Well, those low entropy events apparently were there forever.

https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quant ... verse.html
\
and we already have zero energy in the universe.

https://www.livescience.com/33129-total ... -zero.html
Last edited by Goat on Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #337

Post by William »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:54 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:48 pm But if God does exist (on Christian theism), he isn't up there replenishing the usable energy...he can, but he wont (and isn't).

So it may as well be "closed" in the sense of what a closed system is, which is that no one is out there replenishing the energy.
Simple question: Does the Christian god ever cause anything to happen in our universe after the initial creation event?
I have been thinking along those lines myself.

Strictly speaking, the Universe appears to be in the process of being created as we can clearly verify in our current observations of it...so it is a matter of linking the two [What Christians claim about their God and the Universe] together to see if they correspond.

That is slightly complex, but not impossible to do.

The thing about the Creation is that it appears to be going towards some 'end game' result or certainly, with consciousness known to exist within it, has that potential.

We know so little about it, but - for theistic reasons - we claim to know so much about who created it.

For me - my path branches from the Great Theistic Trunk, initially assuming that there is a Creator behind the question 'why' Creation [this Universe] exists;

As I wrote to The Tanager recently;

Neither of us argue that there is NOT a Creator involved.
We both have different views of the nature of The Creator, but I think that these too, can be sourced at that "particular foundational premises as to how The Creator bought the Creation into being."

That is the branching off point and therefore anything we argue from that point will never reach mutual agreement because our premises are fundamentally different...

Even when I used to call myself a Christian, some 35 or so years ago - I never saw the Story of The Garden of Eden as something to take literally. I considered it to be metaphor, and regarded the scientific explanation as the better one, as for how the Universe came into being.

Because of this, my path branched away from Christianity.

[LINK]
The problem with religion is that it goes a step further by superimposing fictional mythology over actual reality and then attempting to explain how these correspond.

The branch I chose to take, led me to the realization that;

IF:

we exist within a Creation.

THEN;

we cannot possibly understand the nature of The Creator in any other way than to try and understand the creation, as it really is - without attempting to superimpose [filter] "supernatural" over it - because we hardly know much about the natural, let alone try and explain The Mind of such a Creator.

That is the branch I chose. It is not a money-maker, but it suits me while I await data which would close that branch.

Truth is, while I am branching out, I am mostly aware of the main Trunk...

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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #338

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Goat wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:23 pm Well, those low entropy events apparently were there forever.

https://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quant ... verse.html

and we already have zero energy in the universe.

https://www.livescience.com/33129-total ... -zero.html
You are just making things up as you go along, debating aimlessly.

The article you presented is nothing more than "we have an idea; we aren't finished, but we are working on it!"

It is an old article, provide me the latest development which I am sure there is none.

Many have tried to avert an absolute beginning, and many have failed.
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Re: Conservation of energy

Post #339

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:22 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:54 pm
Simple question: Does the Christian god ever cause anything to happen in our universe after the initial creation event?
Yes. God has been known to intervene in the natural world.
Which by definition would require some sort of energy transfer into our natural world which means the system is open in a Christian view.

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:22 pm But those interventions have NOTHING to do with replenishing the energy, which is my only contention.
I understand your point that no energy is "replenished", that's not my point. Some energy is transferred from your god to the universe otherwise no action could be actualized in our universe. That means the system is open.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:22 pm So, "Gotcha" moment; failed.
It wasn't a "gotcha moment" it was to get you to answer a question to clarify whether you believe your god can make anything happen in our universe or not. Perhaps you were going to contend that your god is wholly inside the system and is not transferring energy from outside the system into it. Who knows what exactly you were going to come up with, thus the question.

Your answer proves that the system is open in your Christian view otherwise a god could not cause anything within it to change. That is my only point.

If I understand what you are saying is that you think your god can inject energy into the universe to cause things to happen, but won't "replenish any energy" whatever that means. Are you saying that your god won't add extra energy beyond what it needs to in order to accomplish any work that it might be doing? So your god will do work, but won't prevent the eventual "heat death" of the universe? Got anything to back that up? I'm thinking only a scripture reference is going to work here as now we are into the mind of a god and what it might or might not do.

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Re: Conservation of energy

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:14 pm I understand your point that no energy is "replenished", that's not my point. Some energy is transferred from your god to the universe otherwise no action could be actualized in our universe. That means the system is open.
We can agree/disagree about whether the system is open or closed. I stand by a closed system.

My point about the energy isnt being negated, and thats all I care about at this juncture.
It wasn't a "gotcha moment" it was to get you to answer a question to clarify whether you believe your god can make anything happen in our universe or not. Perhaps you were going to contend that your god is wholly inside the system and is not transferring energy from outside the system into it. Who knows what exactly you were going to come up with, thus the question.
My apologies.
Your answer proves that the system is open in your Christian view otherwise a god could not cause anything within it to change. That is my only point.
Open to God, closed to external natural forces.

Just like my house; open to me, closed to you.

Whether or not you want to call it open, closed, or open AND closed. Irrelevant to my point about no replenishment of the energy.
If I understand what you are saying is that you think your god can inject energy into the universe to cause things to happen, but won't "replenish any energy" whatever that means.
Yet, I clearly explained what I meant in prior posts on this very thread. SMH.
Are you saying that your god won't add extra energy beyond what it needs to in order to accomplish any work that it might be doing? So your god will do work, but won't prevent the eventual "heat death" of the universe? Got anything to back that up? I'm thinking only a scripture reference is going to work here as now we are into the mind of a god and what it might or might not do.
Lol. Obviously, on Christian theism, there isn't anything in the Bible about the world/universe ending due to a "heat death".

So there you go.
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