Evolution, directed or un-directed?

[Tart]

For all those who think evolution is not directed, nothing but random chance, how do you know that? How do you know evolution isnt directed by God (or anything else at that matter)?

[Divine Insight]

For all those who think evolution is not directed, nothing but random chance, how do you know that?

For one thing evolution is not totally random. To the contrary "Evolution Theory" is a very good explanation of how evolution actually works.

You need to understand that evolution and "Evolution Theory" are two entirely different things. Evolution is simply what actually occurs in nature, while "Evolution Theory" is the scientific explanation of how evolution works.

So it's far from just random chance. We know this because Evolution Theory explains what's actually going on.

How do you know evolution isnt directed by God (or anything else at that matter)?

Because there is no need to introduce or postulate the existence of a conscious sentient being to cause evolution to work. The laws of physics, chemistry and biology are sufficient on their own.

Now if a theist would like to suggest that a God was required to create the laws of physics, chemistry and biology, then that's fine. But that wouldn't be an intervening God. That would be a deistic God that created a universe that could indeed evolve into living creatures on its own.

So there simply isn't any need to propose an idea of an intervening God. It simply isn't necessary.

Theists can't seem to comprehend this. And I say this because they constantly make contradictory arguments.

For example, many theists try to argue that because the universe is so "fine-tuned" for life, this supports their Biblical God. But it actually doesn't. To the contrary, if the universe is "fine-tuned" for life to evolve, then there would be no need for any God to intervene in the process. In other words, the theists are right back at arguing for a deistic God again. And a deistic God wouldn't need to intervene.

But then the theists try to argue that something as complex as an eye could never have evolved without intervention. But now they are arguing against their previous position of a universe that is "fine-tuned" for life. They can't seem to see the contradictory nature of their own arguments.

And besides, "Evolution Theory" actually explains how an eye would naturally evolve. So once again, it's only the theists who want to think that this would require the intervention of a God.

It's a "God of the Gaps" argument. The theists keep trying to argue that if science hasn't explained every little detail, then their intervening God is required for the explanation. But that type of God is constantly receding as scientists learn more and more secrets of how nature works.

There simply is no need for an intervening God to direct evolution. Moreover, even if there was a need for such a God what would that say about the God himself? I would think this would say that such a God must not have been smart enough to create a universe that would automatically evolve into what he wanted it to be.

Theists who demand the need for an intervening God seem to be forgetting that this same God supposedly created the universe in the first place. So why create a universe that can't evolve into the living entities that this God wants to exist?

Creationism by constant intervention makes no sense.

Theses really have no choice but to dismiss the intervening notion of a God, and if they want to continue to believe in a God they're going to need to become deists or pantheists, because an intervening God simply makes no sense at all, neither scientific sense, nor theological sense.

It's just an idea that has no merit.

That "Old-time Religion" just doesn't make any sense anymore.

It's either deism, pantheism, or secularism. Take your choice. An intervening God who sometimes comes to earth to cast demons out of humans and into pigs truly can never be anything more than an obviously false mythology.

That's just the truth of reality.

[Tart]

[Replying to Divine Insight]


Well you can say that DI, but people disagree with you.. Like Greek Philosophy for instance, that is the foundation for our philosophy, and ultimately our science as well... What ancient philosophy, and its foudnations, tell us that we need to have an external truth, provided.. A truth giver, something beyond your-self, to comprehend objective truth...

This is about a foundation for truth and knowledge... And in a void, like atheism, there is no foundation for truth or reason, or induction... Fra as im concerned, you guys believe in science on faith that only a God can provide.. Science itself rest on the fact that there is external truth beyond yourself, independent of your reasoning, objective and uniform... Go get presup'ed... Science is justified by a consistent God, that supports order in nature...

So let me ask you, how do you justify your reasoning, without using your reasoning... From beyond yourself? Where does truth come from DI? because it is circular, if your reasoning relies on itself... Not only that, peoples reasoning can be faulty, and that is a fact...

Our reasoning comes from Logos, which relies on God...

How can science be uniform in a universe with no design, no purpose, no destiny... How do you justify science itself, and the fact that it is uniform in nature?

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to Divine Insight]


Well you can say that DI, but people disagree with you.. Like Greek Philosophy for instance, that is the foundation for our philosophy, and ultimately our science as well... What ancient philosophy, and its foudnations, tell us that we need to have an external truth, provided.. A truth giver, something beyond your-self, to comprehend objective truth...

This is about a foundation for truth and knowledge... And in a void, like atheism, there is no foundation for truth or reason, or induction... Fra as im concerned, you guys believe in science on faith that only a God can provide.. Science itself rest on the fact that there is external truth beyond yourself, independent of your reasoning, objective and uniform... Go get presup'ed... Science is justified by a consistent God, that supports order in nature...

So let me ask you, how do you justify your reasoning, without using your reasoning... From beyond yourself? Where does truth come from DI? because it is circular, if your reasoning relies on itself... Not only that, peoples reasoning can be faulty, and that is a fact...

Our reasoning comes from Logos, which relies on God...

How can science be uniform in a universe with no design, no purpose, no destiny... How do you justify science itself, and the fact that it is uniform in nature?

There's a whole passel of unsupported claims and logical fallacies up there. See how many you can identify,

[wiploc]

How do you know evolution isnt directed by God

How do you know god isn't directed by evolution? That seems as likely.

[DeMotts]

[Replying to Divine Insight]
So let me ask you, how do you justify your reasoning, without using your reasoning... From beyond yourself? Where does truth come from DI? because it is circular, if your reasoning relies on itself... Not only that, peoples reasoning can be faulty, and that is a fact...

Our reasoning comes from Logos, which relies on God...

How can science be uniform in a universe with no design, no purpose, no destiny... How do you justify science itself, and the fact that it is uniform in nature?

You began your argument in the OP with a faulty premise - how do we believe in evolution that is "nothing but random chance". We don't think that.

Now you've moved into the Transcendental Argument for God - God is a necessary precondition for logic. And you've justified this with ancient greek philosophy somehow.

Finally we've gone down the "how can you use your reasoning to justify your reasoning" road. How can we measure or quantify anything if we can be fooled?

You're kinda all over the place on this. Which one of these do you actually want to debate about? DI gave you a pretty good rebuttal to the evolutionary question you first posed and you immediately deflected.

[Inigo Montoya]

[Replying to post 6 by DeMotts]

It's as if you addressed Kent Hovind, Matt Slick, and Sye Ten Bruggencate back to back to back.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Tart]

For all those who think evolution is not directed, nothing but random chance, how do you know that? How do you know evolution isnt directed by God (or anything else at that matter)?

It is easy enough to see intelligence involved in the process but not as easy to define what that intelligence might be characterized as, apart from observing the formations.

The process appears to perpetually intervene on itself and I personally have difficulty separating the creation from the creator and think it more practical that if a creator is involved then It is directing from within Its creation rather than as a casual spectator simply setting things into motion and perhaps observing its progress from time to time, if at all.

The reason for thinking this is that the evidence of this being the case is apparent. Consciousness and intelligence are obviously involved in the process.

In regard to 'random chance' I have seen no evidence of randomness actually existing although I do say that it is easy to misunderstand events as simply random, given both the immensity of the universe in relation to our position within it.

[OnceConvinced]

For all those who think evolution is not directed, nothing but random chance, how do you know that? How do you know evolution isnt directed by God (or anything else at that matter)?

I do not believe evolution is directed. Nor do I believe it is random chance.

I believe what we have now is due to the inevitable outcome of millions of years of evolution. We could have had nothing else but what we have now. If evolution had taken another path we wouldn't have what we have today. We'd probably have something completely different.

There is absolutely no need for a god when it comes to evolution, that is the thing. There is absolutely no need for any guidance. We are not here despite our environment, we are here BECAUSE of our environment.

Just look at the universe. What we see outside this planet is hostile to life like ours. We are simply on one planet, one of perhaps billions and billions that happens to have an environment that supports the life we have today. If there really was a god, why would he create such a huge universe with only one little speck that can support us?

Why make out that is some kind of miracle? It is what it is. No need to conjure up magic to explain it.

[DeMotts]

[Replying to post 1 by Tart]

For all those who think evolution is not directed, nothing but random chance, how do you know that? How do you know evolution isnt directed by God (or anything else at that matter)?

The process appears to perpetually intervene on itself and I personally have difficulty separating the creation from the creator and think it more practical that if a creator is involved then It is directing from within Its creation rather than as a casual spectator simply setting things into motion and perhaps observing its progress from time to time, if at all.

What do you mean by "perpetually intervening on itself"? Before I offer a point for debate I'd love to know more specifically what you mean by this.

The reason for thinking this is that the evidence of this being the case is apparent. Consciousness and intelligence are obviously involved in the process.

This is a terribly ambiguous explanation. You can't declare that there is overwhelming evidence without supplying any of it. Expand on this! We see intelligence and consciousness in more animals than just humans. In the case of octopuses it would appear that a fairly sophisticated intelligence emerged along a completely different evolutionary path, suggesting that intelligence can manifest itself in in totally different ways.