To call someone a flat Earther used to be an insult to which the accused would get defensive. Maybe not anymore. Apparently there are now sufficient people who believe in a flat Earth they are able to hold conventions.
I am really not interested in debating the technical details of the arguments that lead some people to think the world is flat. There are a host of videos and presentations to be found - some very long and full of technical arguments. None stand up to serious scrutiny and after spending time on the subject I decided getting involved in a technical debate is just sad. If you believe otherwise feel free to start a different thread - so please remember this thread is not a debate about whether the world is flat or not.
The theme of this thread is sociological and the questions flat Earth belief raises about the times we live in.
Is flat Earth belief a healthy sign that the internet and youtube means anyone can make their voice heard? Does social media inflate the perceived size of the flat Earth movement and they can be safely ignored? Is this just an example that some people will believe anything and if it is odd and crazy enough a curiosity factor means they will garner attention? Or is this movement really growing in size and a sign of an intellectual retreat to a new dark age and the coming collapse of civilisation? Or something else?
Furrowed Brow wrote:
Is flat Earth belief a healthy sign that the internet and youtube means anyone can make their voice heard?
Sure, anyone can make a video and upload it.
Does social media inflate the perceived size of the flat Earth movement and they can be safely ignored?
I think those people have always been there, they are just more visible and organised now.
Is this just an example that some people will believe anything and if it is odd and crazy enough a curiosity factor means they will garner attention? Or is this movement really growing in size and a sign of an intellectual retreat to a new dark age and the coming collapse of civilisation? Or something else?
While there are more flat Earthers than I would like, it's hardly a concern.
Parts of society have always lived in uncertain times but since 2008 that uncertainty has spread much wider leading to a more general discontent. People feel the system is not working for them. Flat Earth and other similar movements have fed upon economic and political crisis. If wages and standards of livings were rising in the West and if there had not been the crash of 2008 and if WMD had been found in Iraq, if the towers had not been attacked, if politicians were not so obviously venal and if the political system was not so egregiously bought to serve corporations and the wealthy, and if mainstream media was now not so obviously filled with propaganda - there would be greater trust in the system and then there would not be sufficient numbers of people for a flat Earth convention. Moreover, rather than seeing the problem as an inevitable system problem and part of an historical cycle the shock in finding the system is malfunctioning and not what they were brought up to believe it to be, some people reach the conclusion they have been deliberately mislead. The next step is a forgivable non sequitur - the problems and failures they now see all around them are therefore by design. As a result there has been an explosion in the number of conspiracy theories and in the numbers of people who believe in conspiracy theories. Do not misunderstand me. Some of these may be rightly motivated, but not all, and some are the sign of a creeping hysteria and evidence people feel alienated. The growth in uncertainty and sense of distrust in so many different areas has lead to a collapse in the trust of science and the various bodies, institutions and corporations that dominate modern science. NASA for example is a usual hate target - to maintain flat Earth belief NASA has to be part of a conspiracy to misinform us.
The collapse in certainty has lead some people to retrieve their own sense of certainty by retreating into beliefs and groups that shut out the world. For some people this is a retreat to a form of religious fundamentalism. Other simply reject nothing except what they can see for themselves and they only see a flat world.
Last edited by Furrowed Brow on Tue May 29, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bust Nak wrote:While there are more flat Earthers than I would like, it's hardly a concern.
Let's hope so.
I sign up to a couple of conspiracy theories myself - and whilst a believer in one conspiracy theory may insist their belief is nothing like believing in a Flat Earth - I do see all this as part of a larger trend as per my previous post.
Can't help but feel flat Earth belief sits among a long list of theories and discontents that signal faith in the political/economic system is cracking. (At least in the West).
Flat Earth proponents are a sorry collection of misfits who fall victim to the most crucial elements of conspiracy theories: Illiteracy in understanding evidence, and an over-inflated sense of intuition that they believe trumps any facts collected by external groups.
They're not driven by any sort of desire to "know truth" anymore than they'd like to be proven wrong. They will hold any number of conflicting and contradictory beliefs so long as it gives them the kind of emotional stability it takes to get through the day. It's the sort of intellectual fragility I would expect from a toddler.
Those who preach a Flat Earth will often have absolutely no education regarding mathematics or even rudimentary physics; any education they do have is repackaged as being part of the "conspiracy."
Due to having absolutely no formal knowledge about the subject, it becomes impossible to accurately understand the scope of knowledge within the field; you lack a proper lens that allows you to understand that what little you know about it comprises only a small portion of the body of information. This leads FE proponents to believe that they know far more about the subject than they actually do, an effect known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Hint: It's the same effect that causes creationists to believe that they know enough about biology to dismiss evolutionary theory. Don't like this little "pot-shot" creationists? Too bad, you're just as guilty in my eyes.
Without any sort of grounded, evidence-based position to back them up, it falls to each individual FE proponent to come up with a model for why reality refuses to acknowledge their intuition-based faulty claims. In doing so, they will resort to any technical sounding explanation. But what's different from science-based methodology is that no flat earther will ever test these explanations or models themselves, nor do they feel they need to. These explanations exist solely to settle the disquiet and cognitive dissonance in the flat earther's own mind. As a result, the instant they come up with any answer, no matter how stupid, they immediately let the matter rest there and refuse to put in any work. After all, Flat Earth is an idea born out of laziness, so why change now?
Flat Earthers believe that their observations are proof enough for what they believe. Problem is, flat earthers observe very little, and ignore much of what they do observe when it conflicts with their views. As a result, when you offer up 3rd grade geometric shapes for them to figure out, they break down and resort to illogical, unscientific arguments that are more readily used to obfuscate discussion than facilitate learning or understanding. Often it's phrased as a personal attack, or even just incoherent rambling.
Pressing a Flat Earther to acknowledge a basic mathematical concept is hilarious, really. Without any priming on the topic of geography, asking a Flat Earther what "2+2=?" would be simple; they'd return an answer of "4" and be done with it. After all, answering that won't destroy their views in an instant. But if you ask a Flat Earther to justify their models of distance between any two points on a flat earth, and demonstrate that it doesn't make sense no matter what weird, misshapen map you use, asking them what "2+2=?" instantly becomes a personal attack on their ideology; they will refuse to answer, instead leaping to all sorts of rhetorical tricks that tries to throw off the burden of answering so that they can protect their worthless ideas for even a second longer. Then, when the heat is off, they reflexively ignore every problem brought up and go back to a default state of believing that there is nothing wrong with their view. Childish.
I believe arian/Trump was an adequate demonstration of exactly what I've described here. His descent into Flat Earther rhetoric is an unfortunate consequence when egoism and self-aggrandizing individualism take an ugly turn and cause someone to fall so far into their own idiocy that they not only refuse to climb back out, but try to drag others in with them like crabs in a bucket.
Furrowed Brow wrote:
To call someone a flat Earther used to be an insult to which the accused would get defensive. Maybe not anymore. Apparently there are now sufficient people who believe in a flat Earth they are able to hold conventions.
I am really not interested in debating the technical details of the arguments that lead some people to think the world is flat. There are a host of videos and presentations to be found - some very long and full of technical arguments. None stand up to serious scrutiny and after spending time on the subject I decided getting involved in a technical debate is just sad. If you believe otherwise feel free to start a different thread - so please remember this thread is not a debate about whether the world is flat or not.
The theme of this thread is sociological and the questions flat Earth belief raises about the times we live in.
Is flat Earth belief a healthy sign that the internet and youtube means anyone can make their voice heard? Does social media inflate the perceived size of the flat Earth movement and they can be safely ignored? Is this just an example that some people will believe anything and if it is odd and crazy enough a curiosity factor means they will garner attention? Or is this movement really growing in size and a sign of an intellectual retreat to a new dark age and the coming collapse of civilisation? Or something else?
It's simply the result of a failing public education system that spends tax payer resources on social engineering and ignores teaching critical thinking skills. Those woh do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't.
shnarkle wrote:
It's simply the result of a failing public education system that spends tax payer resources on social engineering and ignores teaching critical thinking skills. Those woh do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't.
shnarkle wrote:
It's simply the result of a failing public education system that spends tax payer resources on social engineering and ignores teaching critical thinking skills. Those woh do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't.
Yep, that would be the aforementioned individuals who "do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't."
shnarkle wrote:It's simply the result of a failing public education system that spends tax payer resources on social engineering and ignores teaching critical thinking skills. Those woh do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't.
Not sure if that is generally true or the source of the problem. There are flat Earthers in Australia and the UK not just the US. Whilst I have not had personal contact with the UK education system for over a decade I have friends who are teachers and friends with kids in the system and as far as I can tell critical thinking is high up the agenda.
But it is true that those who fall for flat Earth appear to be acting more like faithful believers. It is also significant how they have lost faith in the standard authorities. Even if some percentage of the population fail critical thinking they are turning to the marginal figures of alternative media and pseudo science and they seem to prefer elaborate conspiracy theory that says government, NASA etcetera are lying. They same kind of paranoia that rejects their educational system for trying to manipulate them and hide the truth.
shnarkle wrote:It's simply the result of a failing public education system that spends tax payer resources on social engineering and ignores teaching critical thinking skills. Those woh do know how to present coherent arguments as well as those who do know the truth are easily able to manipulate the minds of those who don't.
Not sure if that is generally true or the source of the problem.
It's true because those who are closest to the truth are the best liars. You can't fool those who know the truth. However, if someone is competent in rhetoric, dialectic, critical thinking skills, etc. they should be able to see through the smokescreen to reveal the truth.
There are flat Earthers in Australia and the UK not just the US.
Sure, why not? It's great fun for anyone regardless of where they live. This is one of the great fringe benefits to getting a great education; i.e. being able to prove your professors wrong. Those who are able to out maneuver their professor's arguments can have their professor's job. Being able to come up with epicycles may seem simple to us today, but 100 years from now, people will be looking at theoretical physics and laughing at our ideas as well.
Whilst I have not had personal contact with the UK education system for over a decade I have friends who are teachers and friends with kids in the system and as far as I can tell critical thinking is high up the agenda.
So what's your point? It isn't like people who have good critical thinking skills aren't immune to those who have better critical thinking skills, or those who are better at deceptive arguments. There are levels to critical thinking. It isn't as if one gains the ability to think critically and therefore has an exhaustive or supreme ability to think critically.
But it is true that those who fall for flat Earth appear to be acting more like faithful believers.
Sure, but the thing to notice here is that they're being conned by science as well. They're using their observations to perpetrate this deception. You can find this in all aspects of science, and the "true believers" will come rushing out of the woodwork when their sacred beliefs are challenged. Look how bent some can get when something like the theory of evolution is challenged. "It's all based upon observable evidence so we know its true" The infallible powers of observation reign supreme in their hierarchy of belief systems.
It is also significant how they have lost faith in the standard authorities. Even if some percentage of the population fail critical thinking they are turning to the marginal figures of alternative media and pseudo science and they seem to prefer elaborate conspiracy theory that says government, NASA etcetera are lying.
All governments engage in deception. This is a historical fact. To think that your goverment is the first to be honest is ridiculous. They're caught lying constantly. They leak deception to the mainstream media all the time. The government has a film studio in San Bernardino, CA. where they produce their propaganda films. They're doing their best to steal the best talent from Hollywood whenever they can.
The biggest media conglomerates script almost all of their programs all the way down to the smallest country bumpkin tv or radio station they own. There's nothing paranoid about looking for another point of view, especially in a pluralistic society. Looking at anything that deviates from the government memes as paranoia is just plain nonsense. It's no coincidence that the US government wants to shut down foreign media outlets in the US
They same kind of paranoia that rejects their educational system for trying to manipulate them and hide the truth.
What's so paranoid about rejecting "mircro-agression" awareness training, or compulsory acceptence of linquistic variations due to identity perturbations? Some people have better things to do than learn about the wide variety of contraceptive devices availlable to them. Some actually want a good education.
Or something else?
