Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

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Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

Post #1

Post by Swami »

On Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:39 pm, TSGracchus stated the following:
TSGracchus wrote:So you think that flipping coins and checking the I Ching, or laying out Tarot cards, or astrology will substitute for science?

Meditation can calm the mind. But it has not produced scientific discovery.

But, by all means, ignore or discard the findings of "Western science" and consult the lint in your navel for answers.
The statements above clearly show a lack of knowledge and experience with meditative practices. It also shows intolerance. As I proposed before, scientists can discover the origins and nature of consciousness and the Universe using field research. You have no evidence that my approach would not work because you lack the experience that I have with meditation. Your proposal is for science to continue in its failed reductionistic and materialistic approach. Centuries have passed and reducto-materialism has still left mankind with the same important questions that we've been asking since our beginning.

""insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."


Let us address some of your claims and show why science needs to adopt meditation as a means to knowledge.

Why should scientist use meditation?
You stated that meditation "only calms the mind" but you're incorrect. Science shows that meditation leads to higher states of consciousness, changes in brain structure, and to emotional well-being. Science needs to be able to deal with consciousness directly instead of relying on "correlates" of consciousness. Meditation just so happens to be an effective first-person approach to deal with consciousness directly. No one has had more first-person experience with all levels of consciousness than the Eastern religionists - some 2,500 years worth of experience. It's only reasonable that scientists collaborate with Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Many are starting to do just that so that should tell you something!!

How does meditation lead to knowledge?
The simple answer is that meditation leads to a state and experience of pure consciousness. In that state, you can explore and experience how consciousness in its most pure form works which of course opens the door to direct "knowledge".
Locke and Hume, believed that we could gain knowledge about the mind through a careful examination of inner experience. If it is true that meditation makes
available certain kinds of inner experience that would not otherwise be possible, then those forms of experience might possibly result in new knowledge.

At the same time, many contemporary researchers in psychology may object to relying on a method of introspection to learn about the mind. In the past, philosophers and armchair psychologists, relying on introspection, have arrived at widely varying conclusions; they have also missed basic facts about how minds work that can be established by simple experiments. Psychologists might argue that introspection simply allows people to project their hypotheses and presuppositions onto their experience and does not help us learn new truths about how the mind works. Only careful experiments, carried out with scienti�c rigor and from a third-person point of view, can reveal such truths.

Buddhists could reply by drawing a distinction between trained and untrained introspection. In most people, they could argue, the faculty of attention is weak and undeveloped, and, as a result, attempts at serious introspection will typically be overwhelmed by various forms of distraction. But those who, through meditation practice, reduce the intensity and frequency of distractions and gradually develop their capacity for attention are eventually able to look at mental phenomena and see them as they actually are.
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Article quotations taken from Dr. Charles Goodman article, Buddhist Meditation Theory and Practice. http://www.academia.edu/36937894/Buddhi ... actice.pdf
You don't have to download anything. Just scroll down and the article will start showing up.
Last edited by Swami on Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #121

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In another discussion section, I made the claim that a person can make mountains jump into the sea. Jesus also made the same claim in the Gospels. I went on to explain how this can happen under my Eastern worldview by bringing up "becoming one with the mountain". I'll explain this "becoming one" in more detail by introducing 4 concepts.

Samyama
In yogic scripture, the process of becoming one with an object is referred to as 'samyama'. I introduced this term in the previous post. Samyama is a state reached during meditation where you're no longer aware of yourself (as the subject) focusing on an object (a flower, a mountain, a god) but rather all that's present in your focus is the object. In a strong or literal sense, you've become so focused on the object that you eventually "lose yourself in it". Now many might say that you can "lose yourself" while listening to music or working hard at work but that doesn't mean you become one with the song. This sounds like a good counter but the two scenarios are not the same for several reasons. Under 'samyama', your are in a meditative state. You are also deliberately projecting your consciousness onto something. This is a bit of a paradox because maintaining samyama takes extreme focus (a lot of consciousness involved) but yet within this concentration you lose awareness of yourself. But most importantly, in samyama state, you are actually merging with the true nature of the mountain at the most fundamental level.

The last part takes bringing in the yogic context. Under the yogic worldview, there is a consciousness that is part of everything. In samyama, when you focus on the mountain you see it for what it actually is, i.e. a manifestation of consciousness. At the gross level , sure, you see a big mass of rocks and sand, but at the most subtle level it is only a manifestation of consciousness. When this is fully realized, then you are in control of the mountain. The mountain can do whatever it is that you want it to do.

Now samyama is the state of being one with the object. The states that lead up to this are 'samadhi', 'dhyâna', and 'dhârana'. All 3 states require training and when put together they lead to samyama.

Dharana
Dhâranâ usually is translated as concentration – the binding of consciousness to one place, object, or idea. Attention is exclusively focused upon one object or idea for some time. As a result, the mind becomes steady and less disturbed. The ambit in which the mind is allowed to wander is greatly reduced; thought waves lessen in number and magnitude
Through practice, Dharana should progress to Dhyana
Dhyâna usually is translated as meditation. This is the unbroken flow of thought toward the object of concentration. Dhyâna is prolonged and well-mastered concentration; it is more effortless than dhâranâ.
Now to Samadhi
In both dhâranâ and dhyâna there is still an object and a subject; there continues to be mental self-awareness. In samâdhi, both distractions and self-awareness disappear and the “object� of attention, alone, remains in the field of awareness. In samâdhi, the distinction between subject, object, and their interrelationship vanishes; one “becomes� the object upon which one is meditating. The “meditator� disappears, and the true nature of the meditative object shines forth, undistorted and untainted by the mind of the meditator. The essence of the “object� is known directly. This samâdhi process is often translated as absorption, cognitive absorption, or ecstasy. Govindan (2001) has provided an important alternative translation of the sûtra describing samâdhi: “Cognitive absorption [samâdhi] is that meditation [when] the whole object [i.e., consciousness] shines forth, as if devoid of its own form� (p. 128). Here, what “shines forth� seems to be not the meditative object itself (unless that object were a spiritual object, as Prabhavananda suggests), but consciousness itself – i.e., puru¶a. According to Vivekananda (1982), samâdhi occurs when dhyâna “gives up all forms and reveals only the meaning� (p. 183)
All excerpts taken from this source:
Handbook of Indian Psychology
Article: Patañjali Yoga and Siddhis: Their Relevance to Parapsychological Theory and Research (pgs. 218-243)
Dr. WILLIAM G. BRAUD

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Post #122

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Further comments on 'samyama'...
According to Patanjali, there are stages of samadhi. You do not suddenly jump into the eternal unification; it has to be done very gradually. The Patanjali sutra says that you can attain samadhi with anything, even a pencil – a very tiny object. You can yourself become the pencil and start moving, and it will speak to you. You think a pencil cannot speak to you, that it is a stupid, inanimate object. There are no stupid, inanimate objects in the world. You have converted them into stupidity by your segregation of them from your being, and you regard them as non-being. No. The being and the non-being are two segments of a transcendent being. Therefore, a pencil does not exist. It is one side of a transcendent being. Thus it is that you can attain samadhi with a little microphone, with a pencil, with a transformer, with anything that you like, and it will become your friend. Can you imagine that a wall can become your friend?
https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/disc/disc_149.html

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Post #123

Post by Sergio »

[Replying to post 121 by Razorsedge]

"Can you imagine that a wall can become your friend?"

I can not imagine this since there is no evidence. I don't know what to make of your claim. Are you being serious?

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Post #124

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In post 1, I explained my view on using meditation to discover the nature and origin of consciousness. I will answer the same questions and other related ones in light of all of the comments I've received since I started this discussion.

Q/A

1. Why use meditation to study consciousness?
Answer:
Consciousness has a subjective nature so our experience of it is from the first-person point-of-view. Part of the scientific problem of consciousness is the challenge of using third-person approach to explore a first-person phenomenon. This is where meditation comes in:
- Meditation is a first-person tool which means that we can use it to deal with consciousness directly.
- Meditation is a reliable tool in that it is objective. It is an objective approach because it silences the mental input (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, expectations, etc) which leaves you with consciousness in its pure form - perceiving (or experiencing) it as it is.

2. What is consciousness? What Western science doesn't know!
Answer:
Consciousness is a universal phenomenon that gives rise to everything in the Universe. Some of the characteristics are that it's impersonal, boundless, formless, aware. What scientists have not done is discover consciousness in its pure form.

Western science has not discovered the following:
- Consciousness in its pure form. To date, Western scientists conflate mind and consciousness and study the two in connection to each other. This ignores the fact that the two can be distinct.
- The fullest expression of consciousness which is its universal form. To date, Western scientists only study a limited form of consciousness, that which is limited to the medium of a physical brain.


3. What is the evidence for my view?
Answer:
- The lack of an explanation from Western science. (Negative evidence)
- The rich experience and explanations of consciousness from Eastern science. (Positive evidence)

In terms of the first point, if consciousness was what I described then we would expect science to not be able to observe it and deal with it directly. Their explanations would always seem incomplete (since they're exploring a limited aspect of consciousness). This is precisely the state of consciousness in Western science. Even many Western thinkers have made similar observations.

In terms of the second point, I point to my meditative experiences of consciousness. I became convinced through a two step process. I first used meditation to discover the fullest expression and nature consciousness and that alone caused me to raise questions about reductive materialism. Following this step by experiencing the fullest expression led to the realization that consciousness is the source of all reality (it is God in that sense).

4. What about the skeptics?
Answer:
Generally speaking, I believe atheists are atheists because they have not experienced. If they experience, then they would become believers like anyone else. This is why I emphasize experience over debate. All of the atheists who have disagreed with me here have not experienced and admit that they don't want to. I appreciate their honesty but hopefully they also realize that it also means they don't really want the truth or aren't ready for it. It's a threat to their worldview that they don't want to let go.

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Post #125

Post by Tcg »

Razorsedge wrote:
4. What about the skeptics?
Answer:
Generally speaking, I believe atheists are atheists because they have not experienced. If they experience, then they would become believers like anyone else.

This fails to explain the fact that many theists also disagree with your claims to have found the one true path to god. It is not unusual for theists to claim to have found that one true path to god. It is also not unusual for many theists disagree with each other. Their only "evidence" is their interpretation of their experience.


Atheists are atheists because they realize that none of the numerous interpretations of the experiences that theists accept as evidence of god are anything other than the imagination of the theists having experiences they claim are the experience of god. Many of these atheists have had the same experiences theists claim are evidence of god but are rational enough to realize that weird experiences are evidence only that weird experiences happen.



Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #126

Post by Swami »

Lets cover the nature of God and man.

On God
East: The concept of "god" is simply a level of reality - the most fundamental level. Although this level has a feature of awareness but it is still impersonal.
Our scriptures declare that creation is the play of consciousness. It differentiates itself into diverse things and in the end withdraws everything into itself for no apparent and specific reason because God does nothing with any particular aim or desire.
Source: https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/e ... a.asp#bk01

West: The concept of God is of a personal and all-powerful being.

On Man
East: You are not your body nor your mind. Your perceived "self" is just a limited expression of consciousness. The fullest expression reveals that you are just as boundless as the Universe - you are God.

West: Man is identified with his body and soul.
Tcg wrote: This fails to explain the fact that many theists also disagree with your claims to have found the one true path to god. It is not unusual for theists to claim to have found that one true path to god. It is also not unusual for many theists disagree with each other. Their only "evidence" is their interpretation of their experience.

Atheists are atheists because they realize that none of the numerous interpretations of the experiences that theists accept as evidence of god are anything other than the imagination of the theists having experiences they claim are the experience of god. Many of these atheists have had the same experiences theists claim are evidence of god but are rational enough to realize that weird experiences are evidence only that weird experiences happen.

Tcg
Set aside the notion of "god". Focus first on discovering the nature of consciousness. This is what many of my views are based on.

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Post #127

Post by Swami »

Scientific skepticism towards first-person approach is unwarranted

Key points:
- Why introspection is unreliable
- Why meditation is reliable

Many scientists reject first-person approaches as a tool for observations. One clear place this skepticism started is with the use of 'introspection'. Introspection is our ability to be aware of our mental contents. Psychologist Wilhelm Wundt was the first to use introspection as a research technique. He used it to help understand the mind. Since the advent of behaviorism, introspection was seen as unreliable for various reasons.
The use of introspection as an experimental technique was often criticized, particularly Titchener's use of the method. Schools of thought including functionalism and behaviorism believed that introspection lacked scientific reliability and objectivity.

Other problems with introspection included:
- Different observers often provided significantly different responses to the exact same stimuli
- Even the most highly trained observers were not consistent in their responses
- The technique is impossible to use with children or animals
- Introspection is limited in its use; complex subjects such as learning, personality, mental disorders, and development are difficult or even impossible to study with this technique
Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-in ... on-2795252

Why is introspection so unreliable?
Because of the nature of the mind. The mind is filled with thoughts, beliefs, biases, feelings, expectations, etc. All of these can lead to misperception. In contrast, the nature of consciousness, by itself, involves awareness (you're simply an observer). Meditation is required to gain access to this pure conscious state which leads me to the next question.

Why use meditation instead to study the mind and consciousness?
The best way to start is by comparing meditation and introspection. What meditation and introspection have in common is that both involve awareness of mental contents.

The two differ when it comes to the level of focus. Introspection tends to involve focus on the mental activity at the surface level - what's readily apparent and at the forefront of your mind (e.g. the current thoughts/feelings going through your head). During introspection, you may also be actively engaging the mind like when you're daydreaming, analyzing a thought, judging it, seeing it through a certain mind-frame, etc. When it comes to meditation, you do not tie yourself to any thoughts or feelings or anything else of the mind, but rather your focus is on self (on your own awareness). By doing this you'll eventually notice deeper levels of the mind (scientific evidence shows this) until the mind becomes completely silent.

Putting this all together, my main point is that the reasons to ban introspection do not apply to meditation. With meditation, there is no mental activity that's left to distort perception. Meditation is an objective first-person approach.

Scientific evidence that meditation increases awareness of deep levels of mind (to contrast with introspection):
[youtube][/youtube]
People who meditate are more aware of their unconscious brain activity.

In the new study, a team at the University of Sussex in Brighton, UK, did a slimmed-down version of the experiment (omitting the brain electrodes), with 57 volunteers, 11 of whom regularly practised mindfulness mediation. The meditators had a longer gap in time between when they felt like they decided to move their finger and when it physically moved – 149 compared with 68 milliseconds for the other people.

This suggests they were recognising their unconscious brain activity earlier than most people, says Peter Lush, a member of the team, supporting the belief among meditators that it helps them to become more aware of their internal bodily process, he says. Such a result has previously been predicted by the Buddhist scholar Georges Dreyfus.
Source: https://www.newscientist.com/article/20 ... ous-brain/

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