From Zumdahl Chemistry Sixth edition
Gibbs free energy equation in Chemistry indicates whether a chemical reaction will occur spontaneously or not. It is derived out of the second law of thermodynamics and takes the form.
dG = dH - TdS
dG = the change in Gibbs free energy
dH = the change in enthalpy the flow of energy reaction.
T = Temperature
dS = Change in entropy Sfinal state - Sinitial state
For evolution to occur the dS is always going to be negative because the
final state will always have a lower entropy then the initial state.
dH of a dipeptide from amino acids = 5-8 kcal/mole ,(Hutchens, Handbook
of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology.
dh for a macromolecule in a living system = 16.4 cal/gm (Morowitz,
Energy flow in Biology.
Zumdauhl Chemistry sixth edition
When dS is negative and dH is positive the Process is not spontaneous at
any temperature. The reverse process is spontaneous at all temperatures.
The implications are that evolution could not have happen now or in the past. genes could not have been added to the cytoplasm of the cell along with producing any gene's in the first.
Production of information or complexity by any chemical process using a polymer of amino acids is impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics. If any proteins were formed by chance they would immediately break apart.
Evolution Cannot Happen.
Evolution RIP
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EarthScienceguy
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Post #121
[Replying to post 120 by Clownboat]
Why not?
Take for how many different breeds of dogs there are. It only takes a few generations of selected breeding to produce a dog that looks totally different than the dogs it came from just a few generations before.
Creationist do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures. It has been observed that plants and animals have a great capacity to change. We observe that there are limits to the amount of change that species can undergo.
Throw a group of dogs on an island where they have to swim to eat. And the dogs that can swim the longest and the fastest will survive. But at no point will the dogs on the island evolve flippers.
Why not?
Take for how many different breeds of dogs there are. It only takes a few generations of selected breeding to produce a dog that looks totally different than the dogs it came from just a few generations before.
Creationist do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures. It has been observed that plants and animals have a great capacity to change. We observe that there are limits to the amount of change that species can undergo.
Throw a group of dogs on an island where they have to swim to eat. And the dogs that can swim the longest and the fastest will survive. But at no point will the dogs on the island evolve flippers.
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Bust Nak
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Post #122
[Replying to post 121 by EarthScienceguy]
If evolution is impossible like you suggested then how can you say you do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures?
If your entropy makes evolution impossible then how is "heredity" possible?
If evolution is impossible like you suggested then how can you say you do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures?
If your entropy makes evolution impossible then how is "heredity" possible?
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rikuoamero
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Post #123
[Replying to post 121 by EarthScienceguy]
So would the new creature still have four legs? Still have a tail? A head? Claws? Sharp teeth? Be carnivorous? Would it still have a brain, heart, lungs, liver, stomach?
We need precise details here, Guy. What do you mean by looking totally different? As in literally totally?
Most importantly, since we're now on the topic of dog-breeding and dog breeds...would your new creature be unable to produce fertile offspring with other dogs?
Totally different? Totally?It only takes a few generations of selected breeding to produce a dog that looks totally different than the dogs it came from just a few generations before.
So would the new creature still have four legs? Still have a tail? A head? Claws? Sharp teeth? Be carnivorous? Would it still have a brain, heart, lungs, liver, stomach?
We need precise details here, Guy. What do you mean by looking totally different? As in literally totally?
Most importantly, since we're now on the topic of dog-breeding and dog breeds...would your new creature be unable to produce fertile offspring with other dogs?
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Re: Tsrot
Post #124[Replying to post 10 by EarthScienceguy]
I go away for a few months, and come back to find more 2nd law arguments that show a profound misunderstanding of the law.
"For evolution to occur the dS is always going to be negative because the
final state will always have a lower entropy then the initial state. "
The second law only applies to closed systems. Evolution can occur in part of the system if energy is supplied from another part of the system. On earth, the energy is supplied for the most part by the sun. Given this fact, your entire argument falls apart.
I go away for a few months, and come back to find more 2nd law arguments that show a profound misunderstanding of the law.
"For evolution to occur the dS is always going to be negative because the
final state will always have a lower entropy then the initial state. "
The second law only applies to closed systems. Evolution can occur in part of the system if energy is supplied from another part of the system. On earth, the energy is supplied for the most part by the sun. Given this fact, your entire argument falls apart.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Post #125
The science guy says he believes in :KINDS AND ADAPTATION". What is adaptation except evolution by adaptation to the environment. Therefore he is saying his own theory is wrong. Of course that is why he cannot logical discuss his theory.Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 121 by EarthScienceguy]
If evolution is impossible like you suggested then how can you say you do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures?
If your entropy makes evolution impossible then how is "heredity" possible?
He does not even known what kinds were on the ark and therefore cannot logical trace this adaptation. People need to press him for answers instead of responding to his bad science of evolution.
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EarthScienceguy
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Re: Tsrot
Post #126[Replying to post 124 by micatala]
Did you even read the argument?
The argument treating evolution as a chemical reaction which it is. Undirected energy only increases entropy it does not decrease entropy.
The system would be the reaction and any energy from the outside would increase entropy not decrease entropy.
Did you even read the argument?
The argument treating evolution as a chemical reaction which it is. Undirected energy only increases entropy it does not decrease entropy.
The system would be the reaction and any energy from the outside would increase entropy not decrease entropy.
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Goat
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Re: Tsrot
Post #127And, life , being alive, decreases entropy. Evolution is merely the imperfect reproduction of life, followed by the filter of reproductive fitness.EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 124 by micatala]
Did you even read the argument?
The argument treating evolution as a chemical reaction which it is. Undirected energy only increases entropy it does not decrease entropy.
The system would be the reaction and any energy from the outside would increase entropy not decrease entropy.
Your response does not counter his point.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Re: Tsrot
Post #128[Replying to EarthScienceguy]
Your argument depends on a faulty premise due to the misunderstanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics espoused. Even if I have not read the rest of your argument, that point stands and the rest of your argument is irrelevant. Multiplying words and diversions from this point does not make your argument valid.
Your argument depends on a faulty premise due to the misunderstanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics espoused. Even if I have not read the rest of your argument, that point stands and the rest of your argument is irrelevant. Multiplying words and diversions from this point does not make your argument valid.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Post #129
The science guy says he believes in :KINDS AND ADAPTATION". What is adaptation except evolution by adaptation to the environment. Therefore he is saying his own theory is wrong. Of course that is why he cannot logical discuss his theory.Bust Nak wrote: [Replying to post 121 by EarthScienceguy]
If evolution is impossible like you suggested then how can you say you do not deny natural selection by environmental pressures?
If your entropy makes evolution impossible then how is "heredity" possible?
He does not even known what kinds were on the ark and therefore cannot logical trace this adaptation. People need to press him for answers instead of responding to his bad science of evolution.
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EarthScienceguy
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Re: Tsrot
Post #130But you do not believe that evolution is an imperfect reproduction. Because evolution has to have one change in the genome followed by another specific change in the genome.And, life , being alive, decreases entropy. Evolution is merely the imperfect reproduction of life, followed by the filter of reproductive fitness.
It has to be a very specific change because as far as we know most combinations in the genome do not produce any type of change except may be death. There are more than 10^500 different combinations that the genome can have. And yet there are only a few million different species of animals.
So there are only a very few combinations that give life. So evolution has to be very directed towards life.
