Debate with a scientist

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #61

Post by Guy Threepwood »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 58 by Guy Threepwood]
I take your point, but you are referencing two completely different mechanisms, one purposeful and one blind, and it is very easy to mistakenly endow the latter with the capabilities of the former a.k.a anthropomorphism.


No again. Obviously artificial selection is purposeful and has a goal in mind (eg. breeding for more productive cows, or more disease resistant plants). Natural selection has no predefined goal ... the only measure of whether a given "blind" DNA alteration (mutation, insertion, deletion, epigenetic effect etc.) proves to be beneficial and therefore persists is via the measuring stick of a higher reproduction and survival rate after the fact. If such a DNA change happens to result in a higher reproduction/survival rate (eg. thicker fur coat if climate changes in the cold direction) then the result is known (ie. this DNA change was beneficial). It is nature that made the climate change, and a thicker fur coat conferred an advantage to those that had it and over time that group would outreproduce the others and eventually the change becomes fixed in the population. It is very simple and no need to "endow" characteristics to it.
Again though you are merely referencing changes in specifically supported variables like hair length. Nobody is debating that sort of superficial pre-supported capacity for adaptation.

It would be very odd for God to create an animal that had no ability to adapt to changes in the dynamic climate he designed..

getting from a single celled bacteria to a dog though random errors in the design code.. is a fundamentally different proposition

but even within adaptive limitations, while wild dogs remained wild dogs, with slightly thicker or thinner coats as their adaptable design allows, humans meanwhile, created a vastly greater range of diversity because each generation needs no immediate significant advantage, but merely a step towards an anticipated goal again the anticipation is what made the diversity possible- can achieve what blind processes never can

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #62

Post by Clownboat »

Guy Threepwood wrote:
DrNoGods wrote:
[Replying to post 55 by Clownboat]
So why? Simply for power and control and to provide answers to unknown questions. Again, literal genocide has been done in the name of gods! Too great of a tool for humans not to realize it and use and abuse it. This would explain why all civilizations throughout time (best we can tell) have invented god concepts.


Good point. Just another justification for the group of people wanting control and power, and if they can convince the masses to follow along with promises of an afterlife filled with infinite joy and good times, then it is that much easier to move them to do things under the guise of "god's will." I think I can count on zero hands how many virgins dead ISIS fighters were "rewarded with" in heaven.

The problem with that argument,

Is that it wasn't an argument. It is an observation.
Virtually all civilizations throughout all times have had god concepts. God concepts then get used to control the masses. Everything from giving up their money to committing genocide. Again, this is not an argument, but on observation.

Perhaps you should either address the observation or acknowledge it? Calling it an argument and then talking about Stalin and Moa is just a dodge. Besides, they killed for political reasons, not because there isn't a god like you have claimed.

Do you acknowledge the observation that (virtually) all civilizations throughout known time have invented god concepts? It's an important point when someone is arguing for a true god concept when all we know about are invented ones.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #63

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 51 by John Human]
Metaphor: we have the implied supposition that a conscious, willful being (Nature) chooses. Not really, "natural selection" is just a fancy phrase to describe random chance as the generating principle for brand-new species.
Wrong. Natural selection is not random. Natural selection is when natural processes quote unquote select for certain traits.
The simplest metaphor to use is nutritious food up on top of a high branch. Those animals that just happen to be able to climb the branches or reach the food in some other way (perhaps via flight or by having long necks or limbs, or being smart enough to shake the tree to get the food to fall) are more likely than other animals (who do not have these traits) to get the food, and survive long enough to reproduce.
If what you said was true, i.e. random chance, then it would literally be random as to which animals survive changes in their environment or other challenges.
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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #64

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 60 by Guy Threepwood]
The problem with that argument, is that people like Stalin, and Mao had arguably more success, oppressing and killing millions of people, from the exact opposite standpoint; there is no God, no higher authority than the state and it's cause.
These men also happened to live in a time period where the human population had those numbers, and the technology to go about killing those large numbers. If the Crusaders had had atomic weapons, they would more likely than not have used them.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #65

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 61 by Guy Threepwood]
getting from a single celled bacteria to a dog though random errors in the design code.. is a fundamentally different proposition
You're making the same mistake as the puddle of water that finds itself in a hole. The puddle thinks that "obviously" the hole was designed with it in mind.
How do you know (from your perspective) that a dog (or any creature at all really) was an intended end goal?
I don't make that assumption. From my perspective, a dog is one of many creatures.
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #66

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 62 by Clownboat]

point being; politicians using personal beliefs to empower themselves is in no way unique to theism

One of the oldest superstitions known to mankind, is that bad weather is caused by bad people, not natural systems, this has been used to gain political power & wealth from the dawn of civilization to this day, and probably always will.

i.e.- for every personal belief, including both theism and atheism, there is a person willing to take advantage of it for their own gain- but corruption is not the origin of the belief.

Most people have been skeptical of materialism since they began pondering their own existence, and so many deduced, correctly I believe, intelligent agency at work rather than simply blind chance- to bring us back to the topic of the thread..

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #67

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 65 by rikuoamero]
You're making the same mistake as the puddle of water that finds itself in a hole. The puddle thinks that "obviously" the hole was designed with it in mind.

well the casual puddle perhaps, looks around as says ''course I fit this hole, I'm a puddle, whaddya expect??' and stops there

A more inquisitive puddle might eventually discover that this seemingly intuitive phenomena, is only possible by virtue of an extremely finely tuned balance of parameters: temperature, pressure, gravity, atmospheric composition, molecular , atomic structure and so on.

Like the puddle, we are born into an extremely finely engineered world, but it all appears 'natural' to us intuitively of course
How do you know (from your perspective) that a dog (or any creature at all really) was an intended end goal?
I don't make that assumption. From my perspective, a dog is one of many creatures.
Same reason, essentially, that we know the Rosetta Stone was designed with a goal in mind, the presence of specified information and an information decoding system to realize it. We only know of one verified source for such systems, and it ain't random chance!

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #68

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 67 by Guy Threepwood]
A more inquisitive puddle might eventually discover that this seemingly intuitive phenomena, is only possible by virtue of an extremely finely tuned balance of parameters: temperature, pressure, gravity, atmospheric composition, molecular , atomic structure and so on.
Would this puddle notice all the other holes that are somehow bereft of water? Would it still conclude a "finely tuned balance"?
As a living creature, I cannot conclude I am a finely tuned intelligent creation. There's far too much wrong with me. We're talking asthma, allergies, I suspect I have diabetes etc.
Like the puddle, we are born into an extremely finely engineered world,
How much of the Earth can support human life, without humans altering their environment in any way? Ever try living in the ocean?
Same reason, essentially, that we know the Rosetta Stone was designed with a goal in mind, the presence of specified information and an information decoding system to realize it.
We know the Rosetta Stone was designed with a goal in mind because we have found other items like it throughout history and seen their manufacture first hand.
Not so with a dog or any other creature.
You failed spectacularly there.
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #69

Post by Guy Threepwood »

[Replying to post 68 by rikuoamero]
Would this puddle notice all the other holes that are somehow bereft of water? Would it still conclude a "finely tuned balance"?
As a living creature, I cannot conclude I am a finely tuned intelligent creation. There's far too much wrong with me. We're talking asthma, allergies, I suspect I have diabetes etc.

well I wish you the best, I'm starting to fall apart a little myself, but by that rationale, my car must have spontaneously engineered itself for no particular reason!?
How much of the Earth can support human life, without humans altering their environment in any way? Ever try living in the ocean?
same again, I can only drive my car from the drivers seat.. the rest must be superfluous? we depend on the ocean to live on land
We know the Rosetta Stone was designed with a goal in mind because we have found other items like it throughout history and seen their manufacture first hand.
Not so with a dog or any other creature.
And by that rationale, if ET finds the Voyager probe, he must conclude it also spontaneously designed itself for no reason, having not seen it's manufacturer, same if we picked up an impressive SETI signal

i.e. the objective measure of intelligence is the information itself, not how familiar we are with it's source

and so having said that, your statement is untrue in essence, we are perfectly aware of other hierarchical digital information systems, (as produces a dog through DNA) and they can always be traced to an intelligent source, we have no record to date of such things ever being created by any materialistic process

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Re: alternatives to "natural selection"

Post #70

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 69 by Guy Threepwood]
well by that rationale, my car must have spontaneously engineered itself for no particular reason!
If reason was all we had to go on...maybe. Thing is, in the case of your car, that isn't all we have to go on, is it? We have car factories, ever been to one? You keep ignoring this point, that we don't have the same evidence for a human or planet designer as we do for a car or painting designer.
same again, I can only drive my car from the drivers seat.. the rest must be superfluous?
Are you or are you not going to answer the challenge? You claimed the Earth is a quote extremely finely engineered world, to which I ask you just how much of this Earth, this finely engineered world, is inhabitables/survivable by humans without altering this environment ourselves (such as with houses, shelters or farms or whatnot).
To this in with your latest line about the car and the driver's seat, are you now going to claim that the Earth is finely engineered but NOT with humans in mind?
And by that rationale, if ET finds the Voyager probe, he must conclude it also spontaneously designed itself for no reason, having not seen it's manufacturer,
ET would presumably have his own satellites or probes, things that he or his people built.
same if we picked up an impressive SETI signal
Again, we have our own radio signals. Answer this new challenge: imagine a world with SETI scientists, a world where not one human has ever broadcast a radio signal. The equipment exists, but no signal of our own has ever been broadcast. In that world, what are the scientists looking for in the radio signals they intercept? How do they know to look for these specific things?
i.e. the objective measure of intelligence is the information itself, not how familiar we are with it's source

and so having said that, your statement is untrue in essence, we are perfectly aware of other hierarchical digital information systems, (as produces a dog through DNA)
And yet your reasoning leaves out the very things I pointed out. Where is the entity that you presume intentionally created/produced dogs? What equipment did it use? Did it use equipment? Or are you going to posit magic, a wave of a hand or a mere thought or uttered word was all this entity/entities needed?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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