Debate with a scientist

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
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Post #131

Post by mgb »

Clownboat wrote:Not to mention, using the same pathway to eat and breath does not seem very intelligent. Does the lack of intelligence in evolution give you pause at all?

God's original creation was of spirit. It was perfect. Creation descended into space time and matter in the fall and must contend with the limitations (imperfections) and evils of a material universe. Perfection is spirit not matter.

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Post #132

Post by Clownboat »

mgb wrote:
Clownboat wrote:Not to mention, using the same pathway to eat and breath does not seem very intelligent. Does the lack of intelligence in evolution give you pause at all?

God's original creation was of spirit. It was perfect. Creation descended into space time and matter in the fall and must contend with the limitations (imperfections) and evils of a material universe. Perfection is spirit not matter.
I know you have some seemingly wack-a-doo religious explanations that you for some reason find to be actual answers (see above for a few).
The important thing is... can you show that you speak the truth?

When you can't, please understand you are no different than a Muslim screaming from the roof tops about how great Allah is for creating the world and mankind. You would probably know this already, but you are just an infidel and likely deserve to burn in hell (according to their theology) I would guess.

You also failed to address how your god created (your claim) Adam and Eve with one tube for both eating/drinking and breathing and how an actual intelligent creator would not have done such a thing. Adam and Eve were created before the fall as I'm sure you know.
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Post #133

Post by mgb »

Clownboat wrote:Adam and Eve were created before the fall as I'm sure you know.
The fall happened before humans were created. The Genesis story is an allegory about humanity. Adam and Eve represent all humans. You are taking the story literally as two people in an earthly garden. As Origen explains, creation happened in spiritual reality, not on earth. The story is an allegory, not to be taken literally. You are doing what atheists do continually; taking metaphor, myth and allegory literally and criticizing them on that basis.

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Post #134

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 133 by mgb]
You are doing what atheists do continually; taking metaphor, myth and allegory literally and criticizing them on that basis.
Atheists? There are huge numbers of Christians who defend the literal truth of the Genesis stories, vigorously. The whole "young earth creationist" clan do this, as do organizations like Answers in Genesis, CRI, many people on this website, etc. Atheists are legitimately criticizing these groups because they DO take it all literally, and continuously defend that view.
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Post #135

Post by mgb »

DrNoGods wrote:
Atheists? There are huge numbers of Christians who defend the literal truth of the Genesis stories, vigorously. The whole "young earth creationist" clan do this, as do organizations like Answers in Genesis, CRI, many people on this website, etc. Atheists are legitimately criticizing these groups because they DO take it all literally, and continuously defend that view.
I agree with you entirely and they are giving a false view of religion to atheists. But atheists use this literalism to denigrate religion.

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Post #136

Post by AgnosticBoy »

mgb wrote:
DrNoGods wrote:
Atheists? There are huge numbers of Christians who defend the literal truth of the Genesis stories, vigorously. The whole "young earth creationist" clan do this, as do organizations like Answers in Genesis, CRI, many people on this website, etc. Atheists are legitimately criticizing these groups because they DO take it all literally, and continuously defend that view.
I agree with you entirely and they are giving a false view of religion to atheists. But atheists use this literalism to denigrate religion.
I can accept that certain parts of the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. But what I tend to question is the logic behind labelling a biblical story as non-literal. If it's based on logic and evidence, then I'm okay with that. But if it's based on trying to cover up the areas of the Bible that conflict with science then that is obviously a cop-out on the part of believers. Smart non-believers see right through this tactic!!

DrNoGods is being very reasonable in debating the literal interpretation of Genesis for the simple reason that many Christians accept it to be literal. If it is not literal, then we can dismiss it just like any other ancient myth.

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Post #137

Post by mgb »

AgnosticBoy wrote: If it is not literal, then we can dismiss it just like any other ancient myth.
That is like saying we can dismiss art, literature, painting... if they are not literally true. Myth is a loose poetic language that points towards truth. Granted, religion has been distorted down through the ages but it still has the truth within it. For those who listen to God the truth can become clear. I refer you to Storm's video in my last post.

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Post #138

Post by AgnosticBoy »

mgb wrote:
AgnosticBoy wrote: If it is not literal, then we can dismiss it just like any other ancient myth.
That is like saying we can dismiss art, literature, painting... if they are not literally true. Myth is a loose poetic language that points towards truth. Granted, religion has been distorted down through the ages but it still has the truth within it. For those who listen to God the truth can become clear. I refer you to Storm's video in my last post.
There's truth from the authors perspective, and then there's truth from reality. If the author had no idea about the origins of man and Universe then the truth that their myth points to does not reflect reality. The truth that you can find in Genesis 1 may be just as valuable as what you can find in Greek mythology - that is to say it has nothing factual about what it pertains to (the origins of Universe and man). I could easily write a poem about the Universe that reflects my knowledge of it and the truth (or message) within it may very well be false if my understanding of Universe was lacking. I'm open to a different view if or when logic and evidence is offered.

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Post #139

Post by Clownboat »

mgb wrote:The fall happened before humans were created.
You don't say!?!
What is the evidence for this? I assume you have come to this conclusion because you are trying to hold on to your beliefs. I went through this very same process as I was being set free from my religious beliefs. There was even a time where I claimed that the Christian god arrived at humans via evolution.
The Genesis story is an allegory about humanity.
How can we be sure? It could also be taken as an allegory about an ineffective punishing god. Much like the Noah story.
Adam and Eve represent all humans. You are taking the story literally as two people in an earthly garden.
Correction. It is millions of Christians that take the story literally. You, at one point in your life may have as well and you have realized that you need to make excuses for it. Like calling it allegory. That is the process I went through anyway.
As Origen explains, creation happened in spiritual reality, not on earth.
Can you put this in to words that don't sound like woo please and then explain how you know such info?
The story is an allegory, not to be taken literally.

I agree that it should not be taken literally. Your battle is with your fellow Christians though as I don't take it literally.
You are doing what atheists do continually; taking metaphor, myth and allegory literally and criticizing them on that basis.
Perhaps some day you will be completely freed of these beliefs. No need to try to explain them away or make excuses. Just take them for what they seem to be, ancient tales by ignorant man.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #140

Post by mgb »

Clownboat wrote: What is the evidence for this?
See Origen of Alexandria.

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