Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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John Human
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #1

Post by John Human »

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #191

Post by mgb »

It is not the body that is possessed. Possession is of the mind and spirit. The body is only the outer appearance. Possession is when a mind controls another mind. People can be possessed by other people.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #192

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Miles wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:03 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:53 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:55 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:50 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:51 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 am
Miles wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:20 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 pm
William wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:17 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]

How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.

However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.

Evocation


Apparently one can do this with angels too.
Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.
Where does the Bible say demons reside in swine?

Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
.

You are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".
What difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.



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Matthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.
Just because they can, aside from the two unfortunate swine of Matthew 8:32, doesn't mean they do. You said "the Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine," implying that, beside the two swine of Matthew 8, demons reside in other swine. And I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for this.
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Apparently, Luke, the teller of other people's stales, also told a different story of one man, who was possessed of a myriad of demons, called "legions", who were cast into a "herd of many swine".
So it appears.

Apparently, animals, an ass, can speak by the means of spirits (Number 22:28).
Ah, the spirit in Numbers 22:28 refers to god, who makes the donkey speak.
The alternate home for the demons, would be the abyss, and the demons would surely prefer swine instead, but once inserted, may have second thoughts.
Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's all speculation.


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Unless you are a Trinitarian, God is Spirit, who makes a sanctuary/residence in men/prophets, and in this case, an ass per Numbers 22:28, by way of his Spirit. One can say, that your presence is merely a dream of someone else, but it would be all "speculation". You either have a foundation, or your whole life and concepts are based on "speculation". If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass. If everything is based on conceptual speculation, you may just be a figment of someone else's imagination. Should they wake up, your presence will simply be a lost image.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #193

Post by William »

mgb wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:58 am It is not the body that is possessed. Possession is of the mind and spirit.


What is the difference between 'mind' and 'spirit'?
The body is only the outer appearance.
Like an avatar?
Possession is when a mind controls another mind. People can be possessed by other people.
Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #194

Post by William »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #192]
If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass.
So it is not about who is speaking through what instrument, but what is being said, which determines whether it be 'god' or 'devil'?

But since the source of the voice remains invisible, we are left to our own devices as to determining which is which.
And since the voice comes from an invisible source, we do not even know if that source is playing both the part of the devil and the part of the god.

But we do understand that it could be possible that one source is playing two roles.




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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #195

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

William wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:33 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #192]
If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass.
So it is not about who is speaking through what instrument, but what is being said, which determines whether it be 'god' or 'devil'?

But since the source of the voice remains invisible, we are left to our own devices as to determining which is which.
And since the voice comes from an invisible source, we do not even know if that source is playing both the part of the devil and the part of the god.

But we do understand that it could be possible that one source is playing two rolls.

.
If you should dare to read the bible, you will find out that the Satan, is subservient to God, and that God uses the "beasts"/kings, the "dragon"/devil, and the "false prophet" to bring about his will. The source of the authority of the beast, is from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13). The devil has already rebelled, and is on a path to the lake of fire. The devil's desire is to take down as many with him as possible, and his siren song seems to attract the "many", by way of his "false prophets" (Matthew 7:13). The present law of nature, for every action there is an equal opposite reaction, such as to balance evil, there is good, and sweet to balance sour. The present creation is based on this basic premise. When you get rid of evil, you must create a new heaven and earth, which is not the heaven and earth we now live in. It is the "science" of Ying and Yang, not the science of political hacks and the "elite" class. The 1st world war wiped out most of the elite, pampered children of Queen Victoria, which included all of the royalty of Europe, by them eating each other. Now, we are looking at the elite/kings/leaders being wiped out in a similar manner, with the demons in control (Revelation 16).

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #196

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #188]
As for theories, which by definition, are unsubstantiated hunches (hypothesis) ...
You're mixing up the layman's use of the word "theory" with the scientific meaning. A theory in science is not a hypothesis. To reach the status of a scientific theory, a hypothesis has to be tested extensively to the point that it is deemed to have been confirmed correct by measurement, observation, etc. Evolution has reached the status of a scientific theory because it has met this condition, although like everything in science there are always refinements as new information becomes available. A hypothesis may be an unsubstantiated hunch, but a theory is most definitely not (in the science world).
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #197

Post by mgb »

William wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:25 am
What is the difference between 'mind' and 'spirit'?
They are the same. Mind, self, spirit are one being.
Like an avatar?
The body is an instrument of the spirit. It enables the spirit to experience physical life. Mental/spiritual states can be manifest in the body.

Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?
Yes, we are spirits temporarily joined to bodies.
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What did you expect?

Talons?

Oversize incisors?

Green saliva?

Madness?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #198

Post by mgb »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:00 am You're mixing up the layman's use of the word "theory" with the scientific meaning. A theory in science is not a hypothesis. To reach the status of a scientific theory, a hypothesis has to be tested extensively to the point that it is deemed to have been confirmed correct by measurement, observation, etc. Evolution has reached the status of a scientific theory because it has met this condition, although like everything in science there are always refinements as new information becomes available. A hypothesis may be an unsubstantiated hunch, but a theory is most definitely not (in the science world).
Websters-

Essential Meaning of theory

1: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events
a widely accepted scientific theory
Einstein's theory of relativity

2: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true
Her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn.
There are a number of different theories about the cause of the disease.

3: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject
He is a specialist in film theory and criticism.
music theory

When a theory is proved to be true (especially in mathematics) it becomes a theorem.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #199

Post by William »

[Replying to mgb in post #197]
What is the difference between 'mind' and 'spirit'?
They are the same. Mind, self, spirit are one being.
Okay - so when you wrote that "possession is of the mind/spirit"...
The body is only the outer appearance.
Like an avatar?
The body is an instrument of the spirit. It enables the spirit to experience physical life. Mental/spiritual states can be manifest in the body.
...it seems to be that is what you are saying. The body is "like an Avatar."
Search "Avatar Meaning"

► a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher.
► an icon or figure representing a particular person in a video game, internet forum, etc.
"conversation is depicted in a balloon over the avatar's head"



Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?
Yes, we are spirits temporarily joined to bodies.
Okay - definitely like an Avatar. The human form is used by the spirit/mind which occupies it.

Further to that you are arguing that the avatar can be occupied by more than one mind, and this also appears to be true.

Where the idea of a demonic mind occupying another minds body [avatar] is like one mind being hacked by another mind and taking over the control of the avatar.

And the idea of a demon is along the lines of "a mind which is destructive in relation to a none demonic mind?

Therein, is a battle being fought for control of the avatar, in order that the avatar can be used for the purpose each [opposing] mind wants to use it for?


.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #200

Post by Tcg »

mgb wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:58 am Possession is when a mind controls another mind. People can be possessed by other people.
This thread asks if the existence of demons can be tested. Can you provide verifiable evidence that your claim is true? How could we test the truth of your claim?


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