When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #251Good start.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:23 am The leading question of the OP is "do demons exist". That question was answered yes.
Dropped the ball on "can that be tested. Religiously based rants don't count. And, you don't need darkness before you can have light. Sounds like it might qualify as a deepity*.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:23 am As for can that be tested, well, that would be a subjective view, whereas the actions of men, betray un underlying depravity, which would not be the result of just adding dust with water and sun light. The very nature of soil itself, would be a redefining energy into matter, which would require laws, such as E=Mc2, and the law of for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. To have light, you first must have darkness. The godless, are not in fact godless, for they have elevated their status to being their own gods. That would lead to depression and high rates of suicide, which is a measurable fact. You have the right to hold onto your own god, and say that there are no other gods, but in fact, you have one god, which is the god of your own creation. Good luck with that, you will need all the luck you can muster. As for you being your own "authority", well, how is that working out?
* Deepity - an idea or statement that seems to be profound but actually isn’t; coined by the philosopher Daniel Dennett
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #252If you go even deeper than that then it becomes apparent that scientists are also interpreting reality through the filter of their senses and mind. They do not perceive reality as is but instead perceive through filters. This is among the bigger problems of Western science.
Consider the mode of perception. Would not perception without filters reveal the truth better than perception with filters?
Scientists do not know about the nature and origin of the Universe. Without this, they have no ground to speak about God.William wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:37 pmNeither interpretation has been proven to be the truth because the Hard Problem of Consciousness is still on the table - thus so is Spiritism...still there alongside Emergencism. "God is Dead. God Remains Dead. And We Have Killed Him." has not positively been established,although there are many who think it is the case, and for those ones, yes - it is equally a matter of faith, as "God Exists".
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #253[Replying to Swami in post #254]
At least science (without any "eastern" or "western" labels as there is no such thing in real science) tries to answer the question of origins (universe, or life) following procedures that have been highly successful in so many other areas of inquiry. So why stop applying those methods to continue searching for the correct answers instead of inventing god beings which have still never been shown to exist, or assuming the supernatural in any form as an explanation for unsolved problems?
And Religionists do not know about the nature and origin of gods, as evidenced by the thousands of them that have been invented over the millennia with far too many differences in characteristics to claim that all of these gods are the same entity (ie. God, singular, with a capital G).Scientists do not know about the nature and origin of the Universe. Without this, they have no ground to speak about God.
At least science (without any "eastern" or "western" labels as there is no such thing in real science) tries to answer the question of origins (universe, or life) following procedures that have been highly successful in so many other areas of inquiry. So why stop applying those methods to continue searching for the correct answers instead of inventing god beings which have still never been shown to exist, or assuming the supernatural in any form as an explanation for unsolved problems?
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
John Paul Jones, 1779
The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #254[Replying to DrNoGods in post #253]
That is why the science is seen by some to be evidence of spiritism and others as emergence.
The "Eastern/Western labels are not on the science itself, but on how the science is interpreted.
If it were simply a case that science has proven one or the other to be the case, these debates would not exist, as the matter would have already been settled.
Thus proponents of either sides interpretations of science, are in those position because of bias-confirmation, not because any science has shown their side to be true, and the other false.
My observation had to do - not with the science but with how the science is interpreted by scientists, and non scientists alike, all of who are influenced by their particular cultured beliefs, which filter through as bias-confirmation.At least science (without any "eastern" or "western" labels as there is no such thing in real science) tries to answer the question of origins (universe, or life) following procedures that have been highly successful in so many other areas of inquiry.
That is why the science is seen by some to be evidence of spiritism and others as emergence.
The "Eastern/Western labels are not on the science itself, but on how the science is interpreted.
If it were simply a case that science has proven one or the other to be the case, these debates would not exist, as the matter would have already been settled.
Thus proponents of either sides interpretations of science, are in those position because of bias-confirmation, not because any science has shown their side to be true, and the other false.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #255Not a problem specific to scientists really because interpreting reality through the filter of the senses and mind applies to everyone.Swami wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:21 pm If you go even deeper than that then it becomes apparent that scientists are also interpreting reality through the filter of their senses and mind. They do not perceive reality as is but instead perceive through filters. This is among the bigger problems of Western science.
There is only science. Labels such as Western or Eastern are just attempts to discredit what may be considered the former, while allowing the mysticism and woo that passes for science in the minds of some to get a free pass.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #256You have a point that all scientists (from the 'east' and the 'west') interpret reality with their senses. That is why the scientific method (practiced by ALL scientists) has the peer review process. This is the key to weeding out bad results, misinterpreted data, incorrect conclusions, etc.Swami wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:21 pm If you go even deeper than that then it becomes apparent that scientists are also interpreting reality through the filter of their senses and mind. They do not perceive reality as is but instead perceive through filters. This is among the bigger problems of Western science.
It doesn't matter if a Catholic priest, a wiccan, an atheist, a Buddhist, or an energy crystal believer manages to falsify a scientific conclusion with valid data and methodology. The errant conclusion would be falsified (of course with further peer review of the falsification). The scientists personal belief system is mitigated for when doing proper science.
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #257It is a problem that everyone experiences but many mystics have discovered ways to get beyond it. Scientists have not overcome this problem.brunumb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:58 pmNot a problem specific to scientists really because interpreting reality through the filter of the senses and mind applies to everyone.Swami wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:21 pm If you go even deeper than that then it becomes apparent that scientists are also interpreting reality through the filter of their senses and mind. They do not perceive reality as is but instead perceive through filters. This is among the bigger problems of Western science.
When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start experiencing consciousness in its true form. When you experience with only consciousness then you experience reality without filters. You are a pure witness.
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #258Your own scientists will say that their methods are limited. This is why many are willing to consult Eastern thinkers.DrNoGods wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:46 pm [Replying to Swami in post #254]
At least science (without any "eastern" or "western" labels as there is no such thing in real science) tries to answer the question of origins (universe, or life) following procedures that have been highly successful in so many other areas of inquiry. So why stop applying those methods to continue searching for the correct answers instead of inventing god beings which have still never been shown to exist, or assuming the supernatural in any form as an explanation for unsolved problems?
Scientists have answered a lot of little things, but they have not explained the origins and nature of consciousness, life, and the Universe. This is a big hole.
Consider only consciousness. If scientists knew about consciousness in its pure form then they would not engage in the fallacy of materialism. Physics falls into this error the most by focusing only on "objects". You will not find the answers by removing the subject from the object.
To discover the nature and origin of the Universe requires that subject and object are one.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck, the father of quantum physics
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #259[Replying to benchwarmer in post #256]
Scientist who pursue experimentation in matters of consciousness [the hard problem for materialism] are largely useless [and even seen as a threat] to the agenda of materialists, and thus have to find their own funding, and peer reviews, whilst also dealing with proponents of materialism creating underhanded ways in which to spread false rumors about them and their published studies.
Such tactics as this
Wikipedia Hijacked by Dogmatists
So it is all very well arguing how things are all above board and there is no bias-confirmation involved in peer review and methodology, but the truth is there is a lot going on in the shadows underneath all of that where the battle to remain the dominant cultural bias as to how science is interpreted, requires a great deal of underhanded activity.
In theory this may appear to be true, but in practice the fact that culture heavily influences HOW science results are interpreted, even to the extent that funding plays a part in even being able to do science, so dictates what science is done and what science is considered by said culture to be "pseudo" because it falls outside of the culturally acceptable scientific dogma - which in the West revolves around the belief in Emergent Theory/Materialism - therein, the bias-confirmation is recognizable.It doesn't matter if a Catholic priest, a wiccan, an atheist, a Buddhist, or an energy crystal believer manages to falsify a scientific conclusion with valid data and methodology. The errant conclusion would be falsified (of course with further peer review of the falsification). The scientists personal belief system is mitigated for when doing proper science.
Scientist who pursue experimentation in matters of consciousness [the hard problem for materialism] are largely useless [and even seen as a threat] to the agenda of materialists, and thus have to find their own funding, and peer reviews, whilst also dealing with proponents of materialism creating underhanded ways in which to spread false rumors about them and their published studies.
Such tactics as this
Wikipedia Hijacked by Dogmatists
So it is all very well arguing how things are all above board and there is no bias-confirmation involved in peer review and methodology, but the truth is there is a lot going on in the shadows underneath all of that where the battle to remain the dominant cultural bias as to how science is interpreted, requires a great deal of underhanded activity.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #260When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start imagining all sorts of things that bear no relation to reality.Swami wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:58 pmIt is a problem that everyone experiences but many mystics have discovered ways to get beyond it. Scientists have not overcome this problem.brunumb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:58 pmNot a problem specific to scientists really because interpreting reality through the filter of the senses and mind applies to everyone.Swami wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:21 pm If you go even deeper than that then it becomes apparent that scientists are also interpreting reality through the filter of their senses and mind. They do not perceive reality as is but instead perceive through filters. This is among the bigger problems of Western science.
When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start experiencing consciousness in its true form. When you experience with only consciousness then you experience reality without filters. You are a pure witness.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.