Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[mgb]

You'll never show the events of the holocaust to be "evil" outside of your own opinion. The Nazis obvious didn't think they were "evil". In fact, they thought the Jews were evil.

What they thought is irrelevant. What is in their hearts is what matters. Hitler was not evil because he said Jews are evil? Really?

Who decides if an act was cruel?

Sometimes, as in the case of Eric Harris, there is an admission of hatred of humanity and a desire to destroy people. See also Carl Panzram's journal.

If I rend off a rapist's penis, am I being cruel, or acting out what I consider to be the proper moral course?

Depends on your state of mind.

Who is so proud as to declare themselves the sole arbitor of what's cruel or evil?

The 'sole' arbiter? There is a general agreement on what is cruel.

My entire point is that not everyone's gonna see "cruelty" or "evil" where others might. You'll never show otherwise.

When a maniac declares his hatred of humanity and shoots everyone up - well, what more needs to be said?

The fact is that you'll never show cruelty or evil to be anything other'n subjective opinion.

I already have but you are determined to turn a blind eye to the facts.

Yes and no. The concept objectively exists. What I'm trying to get you to understand is beyond that, we're left to consider that concept in subjective terms, with subjective opinions.

If someone says reality does not exist and you say it does and they reply 'That's your subjective perception, it is not really there. If you think otherwise, prove it'. What then? There is a point when common sense must prevail over purely abstract academic argument.

Then I challenge you to present these "thousands" of people, that we may confirm their intent.

They are in the media. Ted Bundy. Charles Manson. Read Carl Panzram's journal where he declares his hatred of humanity and wishes it had one neck so he could strangle all of it together.

I'm not wading through a site or article in the hope of finding what you consider pertinent to your position.

That's a pity.

And therein we see how a concept -art- can exist, while being bound to subjective opinions about it.

Same with evil.

As I said, the concept of cruelty objectively exists. It's in determining what exactly fits the criteria where we get stuck to our subjective opinions.

Some cases are abundantly clear and self evident.

[JoeyKnothead]

What they thought is irrelevant. What is in their hearts is what matters. Hitler was not evil because he said Jews are evil? Really?

mgb in Post 27 from another thread here:

People who use spiritual/psychic methods to obtain material goods are practicing magic (in league with evil spirits).

Christians say the darndest things.

With that, I'm confident the observer'll see your claims regarding "evil" are on a par with "magic".

[Tcg]

Then I challenge you to present these "thousands" of people, that we may confirm their intent.

They are in the media. Ted Bundy. Charles Manson. Read Carl Panzram's journal where he declares his hatred of humanity and wishes it had one neck so he could strangle all of it together.

You present three individuals to support you claim of "thousands?" Astounding. Even if your claim was only of one thousand, you'd be short by 997. If it were of two thousand, which would be the minimum to qualify for the claim of thousands plural, you'd be short by 1,997.


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

Then I challenge you to present these "thousands" of people, that we may confirm their intent.

They are in the media. Ted Bundy. Charles Manson. Read Carl Panzram's journal where he declares his hatred of humanity and wishes it had one neck so he could strangle all of it together.

You present three individuals to support you claim of "thousands?" Astounding. Even if your claim was only of one thousand, you'd be short by 997. If it were of two thousand, which would be the minimum to qualify for the claim of thousands plural, you'd be short by 1,997.

3 is kinda close to 1,000s, in that they're all numbery

[mgb]

You present three individuals to support you claim of "thousands?" Astounding. Even if your claim was only of one thousand, you'd be short by 997. If it were of two thousand, which would be the minimum to qualify for the claim of thousands plural, you'd be short by 1,997.

It only takes 1 to make the point. The point being that there are cruel individuals. But you hardly think I have exhausted all the serial killers, psychopaths, war criminals, and maniacs in the world. If I can rattle off three without even trying there must be many more.

[JoeyKnothead]

You present three individuals to support you claim of "thousands?" Astounding. Even if your claim was only of one thousand, you'd be short by 997. If it were of two thousand, which would be the minimum to qualify for the claim of thousands plural, you'd be short by 1,997.

It only takes 1 to make the point. The point being that there are cruel individuals. But you hardly think I have exhausted all the serial killers, psychopaths, war criminals, and maniacs in the world. If I can rattle off three without even trying there must be many more.

You think magic is real, and that magic is evil, and that's all you've got.

[Tcg]

You present three individuals to support you claim of "thousands?" Astounding. Even if your claim was only of one thousand, you'd be short by 997. If it were of two thousand, which would be the minimum to qualify for the claim of thousands plural, you'd be short by 1,997.

It only takes 1 to make the point.

Your claim was of thousands, it takes thousands to prove a claim of thousands.

The point being that there are cruel individuals. But you hardly think I have exhausted all the serial killers, psychopaths, war criminals, and maniacs in the world. If I can rattle off three without even trying there must be many more.

This rationalization also fails to support your claim of thousands. This illustrates the issue this thread has revealed. The existence of demons is assumed just as you have assumed the existence of thousands. Assumptions are not verifiable evidence. So far none has been provided to support the existence of demons. Nothing but assumptions which are at times supported by nothing but assumptions. It's a house of sand built upon a foundation of sand located in a field of sand.


Tcg

[mgb]

This rationalization also fails to support your claim of thousands. This illustrates the issue this thread has revealed. The existence of demons is assumed just as you have assumed the existence of thousands. Assumptions are not verifiable evidence. So far none has been provided to support the existence of demons. Nothing but assumptions which are at times supported by nothing but assumptions. It's a house of sand built upon a foundation of sand located in a field of sand.

I have not assumed the existence of thousands of demons. This was a secondary point concerning the reality of cruelty. And surely you don't expect me to list the thousands of examples that are reported in psychological papers, the media, journals and interviews by psychopaths, war criminals, etc. etc. etc. You are asking for thousands of links. You are being unrealistic. Surely if I can pick 3 so easily there are many more. The argument that was being put to me was that there is no cruelty in the world when even the most cursory acquaintance with research and even the media will show otherwise.

[Clownboat]

This rationalization also fails to support your claim of thousands. This illustrates the issue this thread has revealed. The existence of demons is assumed just as you have assumed the existence of thousands. Assumptions are not verifiable evidence. So far none has been provided to support the existence of demons. Nothing but assumptions which are at times supported by nothing but assumptions. It's a house of sand built upon a foundation of sand located in a field of sand.

I have not assumed the existence of thousands of demons. This was a secondary point concerning the reality of cruelty. And surely you don't expect me to list the thousands of examples that are reported in psychological papers, the media, journals and interviews by psychopaths, war criminals, etc. etc. etc. You are asking for thousands of links. You are being unrealistic. Surely if I can pick 3 so easily there are many more. The argument that was being put to me was that there is no cruelty in the world when even the most cursory acquaintance with research and even the media will show otherwise.

You (and I for that matter) believe Hitler was cruel.
Hitler believed he was bettering the world (or at least Germany).

Therefore, according to you and I, he was cruel. According to him, he was not and shame on your for not seeing his greatness (coming from his mind, not mine).

Was Hitler evil or not? Yes for you and I, no for Hitler. See how arbitrary it is, even in regards to something like human genocide?
Would it be evil to castrate a rapists? Even something like rape that most would view as an evil would have people disagreing about the evilness or not of castrations.
Trying to use any of this as evidence for demons seems very weak.

[mgb]

You (and I for that matter) believe Hitler was cruel.
Hitler believed he was bettering the world (or at least Germany).

Therefore, according to you and I, he was cruel. According to him, he was not and shame on your for not seeing his greatness (coming from his mind, not mine).

Was Hitler evil or not? Yes for you and I, no for Hitler. See how arbitrary it is, even in regards to something like human genocide?
Would it be evil to castrate a rapists? Even something like rape that most would view as an evil would have people disagreeing about the evilness or not of castrations.
Trying to use any of this as evidence for demons seems very weak.

Hitler, I believe, never murdered anyone. But he was evil. Evil is many things. Hitler chose his own megalomania over his conscience and that is evil (yes, psychopaths do have a conscience, they just repress it because otherwise it would get in the way. If you offend a psychopath his moral outrage will become apparent and he will tell you in no uncertain terms why you are the culprit.)