Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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John Human
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:23 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:45 pm As above, I await confirmation of your heart and mind reading prowess.
It has nothing to do with mind reading, it has to do with common sense and the knowledge that cruelty is a reality.
You seem to be saying that there is no cruelty anywhere and never has been. I have to disagree.
I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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Post by mgb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:58 pm I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.
You asked me for an example of evil. Cruelty. Subjectivity concerning particular examples don't matter. What matters is that it is evil.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:27 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:58 pm I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.
You asked me for an example of evil. Cruelty. Subjectivity concerning particular examples don't matter. What matters is that it is evil.
What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.

Thus, "evil" is the product of subjective moral values. You're just not gonna be able to escape this fact.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #364

Post by William »

Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Do you mean can they be demonstrated?

Maybe 'demons' are those who don't really like existing, but while they do, they will demonstrate in their own ways, just how much they don't like existence?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #365

Post by mgb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:56 am What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.
I have already explained, it is not a matter of opinion. Either a person is cruel or is not. Opinion won't change that.
Are you seriously saying that the ill treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was a matter of opinion? That their suffering is not real and only a subjective opinion in someone else's mind? This kind of argument belongs with the arguments that reality doesn't exist, we don't have minds, we don't exist, everything came from nothing, but never mind that, there's whole multiverse of it and we are all in a virtual reality, even though that doesn't exist either because we don't. This kind of nerdified, juvenile nonsense is no more than scientistic superstition and this is the kind of thing you are descending into with your reductive nihilism and relativism. Do you think anyone on the receiving end of Nazi sadism would argue that it is merely a matter of opinion whether it is right or wrong?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #366

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:51 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:56 am What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.
I have already explained, it is not a matter of opinion. Either a person is cruel or is not. Opinion won't change that.
So who decides if something is cruel or not?
Are you seriously saying that the ill treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was a matter of opinion? That their suffering is not real and only a subjective opinion in someone else's mind?
I'm saying, per your argument of intent, that we can't know the minds of others. Did the all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?
This kind of argument belongs with the arguments that reality doesn't exist, we don't have minds, we don't exist, everything came from nothing, but never mind that, there's whole multiverse of it and we are all in a virtual reality, even though that doesn't exist either because we don't. This kind of nerdified, juvenile nonsense is no more than scientistic superstition and this is the kind of thing you are descending into with your reductive nihilism and relativism.
I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.
Do you think anyone on the receiving end of Nazi sadism would argue that it is merely a matter of opinion whether it is right or wrong?
As you mentioned intent, I seek to understand how you can know the minds of others, that you could declare em "cruel".
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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Post by mgb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:34 am So who decides if something is cruel or not?
It doesn't matter. I was asked for an example of evil not evidence that some particular individual is evil. Our estimation of music is subjective but that does not mean music does not exist. Likewise with out estimation of art, literature, poetry...just because there is subjectivity does not mean they are not real things. Likewise with cruelty/evil.
Did all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?
Ilse Koch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch
I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.
I didn't. I just said you are eating from a bad trashcan.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #368

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:50 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:34 am So who decides if something is cruel or not?
It doesn't matter.
So if I say debating on a website's cruel, well there we go?
I was asked for an example of evil not evidence that some particular individual is evil.
And in such, you'll only ever profer your subjective opinion on it.
Our estimation of music is subjective but that does not mean music does not exist.
I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.
Likewise with out estimation of art, literature, poetry...just because there is subjectivity does not mean they are not real things. Likewise with cruelty/evil.
And with art, and literature, and poetry, we'll find folks with differing opinions on the quality thereof.
Did all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?
Ilse Koch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch
I read that, but didn't see me nothing that showed her intent, her thoughts, were to inflict cruelty / evil.
I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.
I didn't. I just said you are eating from a bad trashcan.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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Post by mgb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:43 pm I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.
The world is filled with it from domestic violence, bullying in the workplace, in schools, in Guantanamo - I could go on and on. Subjective opinion about any particular case changes none of this.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #370

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:45 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:43 pm I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.
The world is filled with it from domestic violence, bullying in the workplace, in schools, in Guantanamo - I could go on and on. Subjective opinion about any particular case changes none of this.
The courts disagree.
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