Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

--

[Diagoras]

I’ve re-read some of the thread, since I’d forgotten that I’d made an earlier contribution.

I discovered one post which I think remained unanswered, and may be worth revisiting.

From post #14:

One thing to keep in mind is that popular representations of demons (in the West) through the centuries are, in my view, simplistic and off-target.

There appear to be a wide variation of descriptions across cultures through the ages. Here’s a link that describes a few of them:

https://medium.com/@mythopia/a-brief-hi ... 16518474b3

I’m not aware of evidence for any of these being real.

Another thought: a lot of mental illness among drug-afflicted homeless people results from susceptibility to demonic possession due to the mind-destroying effects of long-term drug use. I've had the chance to do a bit of work with demon-afflicted homeless people.

I work with people who are directly involved with treating mental health issues. Homelessness can be both a trigger for, and a consequence of mental illness. Not knowing anything about the specific work you did, I’ll ask: were you made aware of a clinical diagnosis for any of these people with susceptibility to demonic possession? And if not, what drove you to conclude that this was in fact the reason for the mental illness?

Some things to look for: It seems that every church and mosque and temple has a resident demon, for the practical reason to keep parasitic foreign demons out.

“It seems”? To you? This is an astonishing claim to make, and as such would require some real, compelling evidence in order to be believed.

And church demons play a role in regulating the thoughts of the faithful, as well. Sometimes there is a particular area in a church or temple that has been specially prepared for the demon to cause "effects" on the faithful.

Specially prepared by whom? Are church leaders somehow collaborating with demons to ‘regulate the thoughts’ of their congregations? And wouldn’t some of the less-tempted types of worshipper eventually get ‘a feeling’ about that area, then take steps to exorcise the demon?

My understanding is that fraternity and sorority houses (as well as masonic temples) commonly (if not universally) have resident demons.

How would one go about discriminating between the houses with or without a resident demon?

Demons are spiritual (non-physical) beings that need "energy" from humans to survive.

I note that you put the word ‘energy’ in quotes. Does that mean it’s not energy in the usual sense that a scientist might use it? Can it be quantified or measured in any way, and if not, upon what basis should we take its existence as fact?

There are several ways for humans (voluntarily or not) to supply the energy that demons need. One all-too-common way is masturbation: compulsive masturbators might be demon-afflicted.

Do you consider masturbation to be normal and healthy, or abnormal and unhealthy?

What are some of the other sources for a demon’s required energy? Can it be quantified in terms of minimum energy per day to survive? And how does a non-physical being ‘die’? Have there been studies which can be replicated? It seems that a lack of demons or energy sources aren’t barriers to performing some form of experiment, but I’m not aware of any publicised. Do demons ‘die’ (i.e. cease to survive) from other causes, other than lack of energy?

Demons divide into categories of "good," "worthy," and "unworthy." A good demon will not take up residence in a human's energy field if the human objects. (Doing so would cause the demon to lose its goodness.) A worthy demon won't incite hateful behavior in a human to create energy for the demon from the emotional surge. (Doing so would cause the demon to lose its worthiness.)

Do you consider ‘hateful behaviour’ a strong indicator that someone has an unworthy demon in their energy field? Again, is there a reliable method of testing someone’s energy field for the presence of a demon (and to which category it belongs)?

Demons face an inevitable challenge upon the death or serious illness of their human companion/host. (Temple or church demons don't have this problem, as long as there is ongoing worship energy for the demons to help cultivate and imbibe.) Upon the death of a companion/host, the demon loses its source of energy, and must find another, or it will expire.

Have you any evidence for this ‘parasitic’ behaviour? Is there a method to compare the ‘strength’ of what you call worship energy against the energy derived from an individual? What happens when someone with a ‘companion’ demon goes into a church or fraternity house with a ‘resident’ demon? Do they fight over the ‘energy’?

This difficulty is particularly acute for young demons who lose their first companion -- the human for whom they were created.

Who or what is creating these demons? Other demons? How do non-physical beings reproduce? What’s the demographic (demongraphic? Heh! - sorry, couldn’t resist) population profile like? Skewed to older demons?

Young demons have less capacity to store energy…

Why is that? How do they ‘store energy’, anyway?

…, and, if their initial companion hasn't planned ahead for their continued existence, they are quickly forced into the choice of becoming parasitic (and surrendering their goodness) or simply expiring in the astral plane.

Are demons ‘created good’, then? What would ‘planning ahead’ look like? Arranging a ‘transfer’ to a sympathetic, younger friend, perhaps? What’s the timeframe for a demon to choose to surrender its goodness? Days? Weeks? Minutes?

Does God visit the astral plane, I wonder? What’s his take on all these demons?

Any demon can create another demon if it has enough energy…

What’s the benefit to the ‘original’ demon? I realise you’re answering a question of mine in a paragraph above, but this is a whole new field of investigation for me, so I am likely to need to come at things from multiple angles if I’m to get it straight in my own mind. Isn’t the original demon ‘losing’ energy? Or does it retain some form of control over the newer demon as a benefit? Could a very powerful demon create multiple smaller demons over time? Sort of like a ‘Mini Me’ from Austen Powers?

And could a powerful demon simply steal the energy from a lesser one, and destroy it? Seems just as plausible as creating a demon.

…, but this is currently forbidden among demons in the USA, but not adequately enforced.

Forbidden by whom? Is there some form of demonic hierarchy and justice system in play here? Are the older, more powerful demons ‘ruling’, perhaps being the ones assigning younger demons to particular places of worship? Is it merit-based, or more of a ‘time served’ deal, and do demons get promotions - perhaps to a cathedral? Is there nepotism in demon-land?

Do demons respect real world geopolitical boundaries? Couldn’t a demon just fly (do they fly?) over to a different country with a more liberal demon leadership?

It is my understanding that recently in the USA, the practice of "demon lords" enslaving dozens of demons who are required to extract energy from ignorant or unwilling humans for the benefit of demon lord has been severely curtailed.

Would this have parallels with the real world U.S. government enacting legislation that curtails ‘big business’? What do you say to an opinion that your ‘understanding’ reads much like a case of anti-establishment projection?

Young demons, for the first six years of their existence, are inclined to be very talkative, as part of necessary "language acquisition." A demon is "born" with the entire vocabulary of its parent, but has no way of understanding things like "hot" or "windy" that affect the human companion.

So, as a thought - might a young demon, on first contact with a human companion, appear to be babbling nonsense?

Six years seems very precise. Is there some form of ‘demon puberty’ at six years old? And theoretically, given an unbroken chain of energy sources: worshippers, companions, masturbators and what have you - how long could a demon exist for?

On preview, I see I’ve asked about fifty questions. That’s rather excessive! In fairness to you (since questions are always easier to ask than answer), I’d be equally happy with either an attempt to answer all of the above, OR - just the one question below:

If “Ancient Demon was in Rome”, can you ask it to respond in, say, fourteenth-century Italian for us?

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #113]

The last post John Human wrote was Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:06 am. He was Last active: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:44 pm.

I did invite him to The Campfire, to discuss the Ancient Demon, but he stayed near the peripherals, choosing not to venture in...nothing came of it.

Musing on The Ancient Demon

[Diagoras]

Thanks for pointing that out - I should have thought to check whether I was dealing with an active poster or not.

I’m happy to wait for a response - my post will no doubt be up there on the first page for a while. The Science forum seems to be a little quiet of late.

I did glance through your linked post. Seems there’s quite a bit more of the story about demons there, so it at least gave me an insight into more about the poster - thanks.

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #115]

Yes, There seems to be a Demon to explain every human action in reading that stuff John Human wrote.

[JoeyKnothead]

Do demons exist?

Yep.

Can that be tested?

Get married.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #113]

The last post John Human wrote was Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:06 am. He was Last active: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:44 pm.

I did invite him to The Campfire, to discuss the Ancient Demon, but he stayed near the peripherals, choosing not to venture in...nothing came of it.

Musing on The Ancient Demon

I saw your OP there, and I'm here to tell it, you really need to write a book!

The opening in the OP was spectacular, and then I got to this...

In thinking more about that truly unknown thing called the sub or unconscious aspect of ourselves, I found myself thinking that we are to it, what our shadow is to us.

Awesome!

Can't wait to read the rest!

I just can't brag on this enough.

[mgb]

[Replying to post 1 by John Human]

Does science deny the existence of demons or did it simply describe and rename them?

This is an important point. Psychology has relabeled and renamed many aspects of spiritual reality. In this respect it is in danger of replacing reality with a tautology. What is 'schizophrenia'? It is a label on a set of symptoms, that is all. What causes these symptoms? Psychologists cannot even agree with each other on this point.

[Tcg]

Psychology has relabeled and renamed many aspects of spiritual reality.

The first step in supporting this claim would be to provide verifiable evidence of a "spiritual reality." Can you provide anything that qualifies?


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

This is an important point. Psychology has relabeled and renamed many aspects of spiritual reality. In this respect it is in danger of replacing reality with a tautology. What is 'schizophrenia'? It is a label on a set of symptoms, that is all.

Schizophrenia is far more'n just its label. My entire adult life has been spent fighting against this disease. I go from the highs of my delusions, to the depths of my despair. It's a condition far more than just a label. The voices want me to kill myself. The voices hate me. Off my meds, I quickly revert to a paranoid, voice hearing wreck.

"Symptoms" doesn't do it justice. It's a life lived never being sure of where reality and delusion part ways. It's the fear of having an episode in front of family. I say family cause I don't really have any friends. When I meet folks the voices come in about thirty to sixty minutes. "You're a lousy..." "You're better off dead...". Unless the meds decide to work, I'm as fun to be around as an evangelical.

There's no known cure. So they dope ya up with this or that, and all the dope does is dull the senses. Makes ya easier to manage. It ain't about a cure, it's about lessening the aggravation ya cause others. Owing to several incidents, I'm not allowed off my property unless I'm accompanied by my "adult guardian". "Guardian" is what the doctors and courts call the woman I love. My Pretty Thing is my jailer, my probation officer, my nurse, my "guardian". I go back to the rubber room on her whim alone. No court. No doctor. Whim. Thankfully she sees something worthy in me.

What causes these symptoms? Psychologists cannot even agree with each other on this point.

There's data to suggest that hearing voices is the product of a misfiring brain.The regions responsible for hearing appear to be hyperactive. I'm unaware on if it's been determined to be poor electrical wiring, or down to associated chemical imbalances.

The association with the more damaging or paranoid thought isn't as well understood. My research finds no interesting or compelling explanations. I do remember seeing "witches in shadows", or the "shadows of witches" when I was around six or seven. About a decade ago I remember reading a paper that mentioned this, but haven't found anything about it since. So the common thinking that it presents in early adulthood might be off for some cases.

In my case, the delusions are peculiarly not of a religious nature, but more along the lines of "I'm better and smarter", to the point I embarrass myself sometimes (unmedicated). I've been told our delusions often speak of our desires. Having just an eighth grade education and a curious mind, maybe my regretting a lack of a better education comes through in my delusions.

As it is with the medical and psychological sciences, much remains a mystery regarding a disease with both physical and psychological consequences. Continued study and experimentation is the schizophrenic's only hope. I'll die with this disease. It might not kill me outright, but in many ways it's bled me dry.

Just thought I'd share. Oh man I hate that. In the homes or the walls, "sharing" is how we understand our disease. It's how we learn to recognize when an episode is imminent. It works, but it feels like an episode of Oprah.

[mgb]

Psychology has relabeled and renamed many aspects of spiritual reality.

The first step in supporting this claim would be to provide verifiable evidence of a "spiritual reality." Can you provide anything that qualifies?
Tcg

The real issue here is what the word 'spiritual' means. We could say 'psychological reality' but what does psychological mean? What is the psyche? Psychologists have not answered this so we are stuck with semantics. My point is that moving from a spiritual explanation to a psychological explanation resolves nothing, it just changes the labels. What is the difference between spiritual and psychological? Maybe none.

Schizophrenia is far more'n just its label. My entire adult life has been spent fighting against this disease.

I'm sorry to hear of your struggle in this area. I hope you will triumph eventually. When I say 'schizophrenia' I am referring to a word, not a disease. Words are labels. Different labels may refer to the same thing. Like the bard said A rose by any other name is still a rose.

When I speak about symptoms I am saying that until we understand what schizophrenia is we can only refer to symptoms. This is not meant to demean anybody's struggle with this disease. If you ask a psychiatrist what schizophrenia is s/he will only describe its symptoms because they don't really know what it is. There are various theories about it but none of the are rigorously established.