Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

--

[emilynghiem]

[Replying to John Human in post #101]

Dear @John Human
According to some sources, including a good friend of mine,
it is possible to use finer analog type technology to measure
the brain waves and "prove" that demonic voices do register as
a type of NOISE or difference in energy.

I think this is more like studying DREAMS.
We will be able to prove BRAIN WAVES changes during dream states.
But may not be able to prove "content" of those images or visions in the mind.

What we CAN prove is CORRELATION between
people who have been able to CURE or CONTROL these conditions
by FORGIVENESS therapy and generational healing as used in
Christian spiritual healing and/or deliverance/exorcism.

As well as correlation between failure to forgive and resolve
past issues with inability to comply with authority/medical treatment
and inability to heal, recover or manage conditions if these turn out to be incureable.

If you are interested in this field, I recommend the books
GLIMPSES OF THE DEVIL by Scott Peck
HEALING (edition 1999 or later) by Francis MacNutt
Healing is Yours by Phillip Goldfedder (he has a website
where you can contact him www.healingisyours.com
He is a retired Neurosurgeon and discovered Christian
Spiritual Healing worked better than surgery or medications.)

If you want to pursue studies, I recommend the Templeton Foundation
to apply for grants, and try to work with university or medical programs
in related fields, either psychology/psychiatry or groups interested
in bridging the gap between religious practice and medical studies and ethics.

Let me know if you like the idea of forming a team to pursue grants
and cases to study!

I am interested in helping victims of eating disorders and phobias
causing them to cut or starve themselves to death, suffer
suicidal or homicidal obsessions, etc. I think spiritual healing
could prove the fastest way to contain or remove those addictive disorders
and save lives!

I would like to do more studies on identifying, treating
and either curing or managing dangerous conditions
to prevent crime, abuse, rape and other violence and violations.

Demonic voices are not as common as demonic oppression
and addictions/disorders that are filling up both our
prison and mental health systems, and putting people
on the streets or getting people killed by crime and violence daily.

The same solutions that get rid of "demonic voices"
also solve a myriad of other social, mental and physical ills.

So a lot more good can come from this research!

Let me know what your interests are, and how I can help you!

[Tcg]

Dear @John Human
According to some sources, including a good friend of mine,
it is possible to use finer analog type technology to measure
the brain waves and "prove" that demonic voices do register as
a type of NOISE or difference in energy.

Given that the existence of demons hasn't been proven, the study of brain waves can't "prove" that demonic voices register at all.

What we CAN prove is CORRELATION between
people who have been able to CURE or CONTROL these conditions
by FORGIVENESS therapy and generational healing as used in
Christian spiritual healing and/or deliverance/exorcism.

Correlation does not prove causation.


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

...
I think this is more like studying DREAMS.
We will be able to prove BRAIN WAVES changes during dream states.
But may not be able to prove "content" of those images or visions in the mind.
...

I make no claims regarding the veracity of the reports, but find em pertinent...

Scientists 'read dreams' using brain scans.

Scientists extract images directly from brain.

I still remember how excited I was upon first hearing about this magical ability to reach into the brain and pull out images. I can't say I've heard much since, but it stuck with me all this time.

[emilynghiem]

[Replying to Tcg in post #104]

Yes to both @Tcg
These are my points exactly:
1. We do not need to argue or prove demonic voices or beliefs are real or not.

Notes:
The medical studies can focus on patients reporting these mental issues BEFORE therapy/treatment, and their ability to overcome such reported conditions and function AFTER therapy is applied.
Whether they succeed or fail to improve their mental conditions, the STAGES of progression can still be documented to show any patterns, similar to how diabetes and cancer have degrees or STAGES of escalation or recovery and ways to monitor relapses.

2. We cannot prove causation which depends on faith based belief, but we CAN show CORRELATION which is enough to make the case for recommending therapy and counseling based on forgiveness to facilitate healing and recovery.

If we stick to where we AGREE science can be used, we can solve problems without arguing over areas that remain based on personal faith and beliefs.

It is not necessary to prove that, so why argue needlessly if that distracts, does not help, but does more harm by obstructing progress in addressing and resolving key issues

[William]

[Replying to emilynghiem in post #106]

I think one of the major areas to focus on is the human imagination. This is where all such notions begin their journey into the Human world, and the individual must learn to understand how the imagination works and how to eventually protect ones imagination from other human influences which are constantly used to prey upon anyone who does not have such protection.

Mostly we are molested in our very early years [as children] with stories which are used to sow seeds into our minds in which our imaginations then accept cultural stories as "the truth" our parental figures tell them as, and the victims themselves then nurture such and help them to grow, and spread them on into the next generation of innocent minds open to such influence.

This is a form of controlling the individual to work with the culture they are born into, as a way of towing the line, which has assisted [in a rudimental manner] in Cultures surviving into the modern world we now experience.

This modern world offers information which could help to undo the damage cultural superstition has injected into general society, and few, if any, Human Cultures are free from the debilitating affects of said superstition, many of which are still opposing Human progression through scientific method because such threatens the very foundations in which the surviving cultures depended upon in order to survive - the beloved stories themselves.

The individual victim has to learn how to identify the source of their afflictions and find beneficial ways in which to come out from under the influences of the stories which took root in their imaginations, and thus support systems have to be in place in order to help the individual help themselves.

[Tcg]

2. We cannot prove causation...

Yes indeed, which neuters your argumentation.


Tcg

[emilynghiem]

[Replying to Tcg in post #108]

Dear @Tcg
Maybe it neutralizes OTHER people whose approach is TRYING to prove causality.

My approach does NOT depend on that.
I'm saying to get the benefits of healing out of the process,
we don't have to focus, argue or prove causality.

We just conduct the healing, and study/record the CORRELATION.

And that is good enough.

It still achieves the best possible we can establish,
and it still helps people to receive the healing.

We do not even need to show any predictable or consistent pattern of results,
only show that the STAGES of response and recovery follow patterns.
But these vary for each person, so it is not necessary to show it is all the same.

Wouldn't you find this a great relief and benefit
that the best use of Christian practice for healing
doesn't even need to involve proof of causality?

We just show that doing the forgiveness therapy
and prayer for healing/deliverance etc. CORRELATES
with getting positive healing in different forms.

It does not even require proving the process going on.
People agree to forgive and pray for healing,
and this CORRELATES with enhanced recovery and healing.

CORRELATION is enough to show the process works effectively.

If people want to say it is purely placebo or mind over matter,
we can compare different ways of trying to do a "placebo" effect:
and likely will find the FACTOR that makes the difference is
the DEGREE/LEVEL of FORGIVENESS the person agrees to go through internally.

There are already plenty of studies on forgiveness and health in general,
but this would more specifically target ill conditions that other methods alone don't cure.

[emilynghiem]

[Replying to William in post #107]

Dear @William
I believe what you describe applies in multiple ways.
A. It applies to both real and imagined oppression/abuse which is still affecting the individual
B. It applies to conflicting relations and healing those relations between abused and abusive people.
C. It applies to general/collective perceptions and mindsets AROUND people who have experienced or spread abuse.

And yes, healing any one of these levels opens avenues to healing the others.

Even if someone has imagined persecution, whatever unnatural/unhealthy/imbalanced conditions
are causing someone to suffer that, the same HEALING process applies and can help that person.

It is interesting to read some cases of healing prayer, where sometimes
even a person witnessing or in the audience will suddenly receive healing indirectly.

These unintended consequences may be too unpredictable to capture in formal study.
But if each replicated study includes any and all reports of additional side effects or responses,
we could still document this as a PATTERN. And call it indirect or third-party healing,
and just record any reports of additional experiences that anyone involved in the process
who was not a target subject.

[William]

[Replying to emilynghiem in post #110]

It is interesting to read some cases of healing prayer, where sometimes
even a person witnessing or in the audience will suddenly receive healing indirectly.

Hi emilynghiem.

Exactly what steps are involved with this "healing prayer"? Bullet points will suffice and anything re those that then I have questions about, I will ask you.

Cheers

W

[JoeyKnothead]

...
Wouldn't you find this a great relief and benefit
that the best use of Christian practice for healing
doesn't even need to involve proof of causality?

Nor does it involve proof of reality.

We just show that doing the forgiveness therapy
and prayer for healing/deliverance etc. CORRELATES
with getting positive healing in different forms.

It does not even require proving the process going on.
People agree to forgive and pray for healing,
and this CORRELATES with enhanced recovery and healing.

Please present such events, tests and / or resulting data for analysis.

CORRELATION is enough to show the process works effectively.

Without the above requested data, we're lost as a cow at a square dance on this issue.

If people want to say it is purely placebo or mind over matter,
we can compare different ways of trying to do a "placebo" effect:
and likely will find the FACTOR that makes the difference is
the DEGREE/LEVEL of FORGIVENESS the person agrees to go through internally.

How might we reliably determine which forgiveness, and which level of it offers which cure?

If I forgive the pretty thing for all her cats, does that mean stubbing my toe won't ever again cause me pain?

Or do I also need to forgive her for not letting me have any desert unless I eat all my veggies?

There are already plenty of studies on forgiveness and health in general,
but this would more specifically target ill conditions that other methods alone don't cure.

Please present such studies for analysis.