Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[John Human]

A major problem we run into is the simple issue of deception. While it is uncouth to accuse another forum member (or anyone, forthright) of bearing falsehood, it is of critical importance in threads like these to establish some kind of verification system.

Perhaps Neatras has not carefully reviewed the earlier posts on this thread (not a criticism -- most of us have limited time and use it to focus on the most recent posts), in particular post #28, where I touch on the question of verification. Engaging with what I wrote in post #28 might be a good starting point.

We have plenty of experience with liars in this world, and not so much (or any) experience with the supernatural.

Perhaps you should simply speak for yourself, and not use the general "we." Some people have plenty of experience dealing with what you term the "supernatural," but this type of experience is blocked off from academic discussion by firmly-entrenched but increasingly brittle taboos, as academic society becomes an increasingly isolated sub-culture, comparable to the Church losing influence in pre-Revolutionary France.

I would presume that any otherworldly being would at least be conscious enough of that fact to understand the intellectual burden on themselves to put in the effort to be known; if they do any less than that, then what good is it to communicate information that is easily faked and provides no insight or verifiable knowledge?

It is my understanding that Ancient Demon has already directly communicated with a number of people who are active in this forum.

Beyond that, in post #28, I discussed the related phenomenon of communicating with deceased ancestors as a less emotionally-charged way to test (on an individual level -- as with dreams, there is no "objective" evidence for the contents of an individual's dream). I will go on to suggest that finding individuals to compare the contents of such communications with (distant) common ancestors could be a further test, beyond what I proposed in post #28.

Here is an example of a story very recently received (finished yesterday) from a prominent ancestor, Thomas Cecil, Baron Burghley (1542-1623):

(May 25, 2019) Thomas Cecil was a minister. Thomas was not as important as his brother Robert. Thomas had to think that his brother was the one who has been remembered by history. Thomas was important, but not as much.

(May 27, 2019) Thomas was unable to be as the first minister. This was the ambition. This was always out of reach. Thomas had to think, because of his ambition, Thomas sometimes tried to act in a way that made other men look bad. This was not uncommon. Thomas had to regret. Thomas began to learn. This was a way that caused bad feelings among the men who had to cooperate for the realm to function.

(May 29, 2019) Thomas improved. Thomas was noticed. [INTERRUPTED] Thomas had a decision to make. Thomas knew, because of what Thomas had done, that three men hated Thomas. Thomas had to think of how to relieve the feelings. Thomas thought, this should be done in stages. The first stage was easy: Do not do anything to make the feeling worse. The second stage was tricky: Act indirectly for the benefit of the men. This might be seen. The third stage was to apologize and offer to make (compensation). Thomas was able to do this with one man. This had an effect on the other two. Eventually, none of them hated. Thomas was never able to cooperate with them.

(May 28, 2019) Thomas had to think of what he did. Thomas was unable to undo harm that he did. Thomas was able to make amends. That had to be sufficient. Thomas was able to hope, and continued hoping until the day Thomas died.

(May 31, 2019) Thomas was unable to be at peace. Thomas had harmed six women. Each woman had given a child. The goal was to have an additional son. All of the children were daughters. Thomas kept on trying. Each woman was maintained. Thomas was unwilling to give dowries. Each daughter found a man. The man was as a husband. This was of bastard families. Thomas supposes that many men stopped after having a son in this way, and didn’t have any daughter. Thomas made up for this lack.

(June 4, 2019) Thomas was the man who decided. Thomas had to be invisible. There was a brother. The brother was the face. Thomas was the mind. The brother had a way with people. Thomas had a way with strategy. The brother accepted. Both Thomas and the brother were well.

(June 9, 2019) Thomas had a decision. The brother was of the highest. Thomas could not hope. Thomas had to think of a son being in this position. Thomas had to prepare the son. The son had to be able to consider the realm before the family. This was of the essence. Thomas understood, a man who did this and was recognized by a faithful sovereign would prosper. The son took the message to heart.

Thomas did not as he would. Thomas did as Thomas saw. Thomas knew. The sight was of a spirit. The Sight showed. Thomas understood that the Sight did not show without reason. Thomas had to act as Thomas saw. Thomas understood, if Thomas did not, a terrible result would happen. The result might not be for Thomas. The plan of the sight was harmony within the kingdom. The Sight had to plan in a way that allowed people to cooperate. The sight had to think of men who had power and made decisions. Thomas understood that the Sight, in the family of Cheke, came to Cecil and demanded attention. Cheke preserved the sight for six generations. The sight finally was able to descend to a family with power.

(June 11, 2019) Thomas had a relationship. The wife was of a similar family. Neville and Cecil both had the sight. Thomas understands that Neville rebelled against what the sight showed. This resulted in a terrible crisis. Thomas understood that Neville could not recover.

(June 18, 2019) Thomas had a gift. The sight was strong. Thomas was able to think of a problem in the kingdom. The sight gave a way to make the situation better. Sometimes the situation would completely recover. Sometimes it would get better and then get worse again.

(June 20, 2019) Thomas had to think of the well-being of many people. The sight was constant. Thomas looked and acted. There was no thinking. Thomas had a reputation The man was of a genius. The brother had the ability to be as one with people. But Thomas had the ability to see a clear way forward. Thomas had to be very careful. This ability, if talked about, would lead to the downfall of Cecil. Nobody was allowed to have the sight.

(June 24, 2019) Thomas had to think. The Sight was not demanding. Thomas used. There was no compulsion. The Sight sometimes was of this way. Thomas had to think. Ancestors gave. Thomas saw. There was a clear indication. Thomas was living as the Sight imagined.

(June 28, 2019) Thomas had the ability to ask. The Sight was able to communicate. The Sight explained, it would talk once and never again. The Sight was a being that had the responsibility of ensuring that a lineage continued. The lineage was of an ancient king. The king was in the Bible. The Bible misrepresented the story of Nebuchadnezzar. This was the king who was the ancestor of everyone who had the sight. Nebuchadnezzar was not a bad king. Nebuchadnezzar was under the compulsion to act as the Sight ensured. This was the story that was not included. The Sight passed, from a descendant of Nebuchadnezzar, into the House of David. This was the origin of the Sight in the European royal houses. The Sight did not give details. The Sight had to do as it did, because humans are inclined to self-destruct. The Sight is opposed to a force that wanted humans to self-destruct. The force acted on human leaders. Later, the force acted on groups of men with similar motives. This is the result of the force being able to compel men who try to dominate. If a man does not try to dominate, the force has no power over the man.

(July 5, 2019) Thomas had to be able to have a discipline. Thomas had to not rely on the sight for routine decisions. Thomas understood, because of this need, that Thomas would not be able to continue if Thomas was in a time of crisis. Thomas could not overuse the sight.

Thomas decided. There would be a system. Thomas would not use the sight for routine requests. Thomas had to think of the good of the realm. The good of individuals would be the topic for Thomas to use his own judgment. For the good of the realm, Thomas looked. Many times there was a clear alternative, and one choice was superior. Sometimes there were alternatives with little difference in the outcome. And once, there was no alternative. The situation must be endured. This led Thomas to gain a reputation. Thomas was the man who could find a way through. When, in this case, Thomas said there was no way through, this was accepted. Thomas had the will of the decision makers. This was a terrible power. Thomas had to be insistent on not receiving gifts. This was mentioned. This was respected. Thomas had the reputation of a man without personal interest.

(July 6, 2019) Thomas had to discuss what was going to happen. Thomas decided to not. There was too much at stake for a careless word to give thought that Thomas might have the sight. If Thomas had given this thought, there would be a cry. The sight was reviled. The sight made men do things that were against the Church. Thomas had no experience of this. Thomas simply heard the stories. A man with a wife was commanded to have a child by another woman. Somehow, the sight was of this act. The sight must be eliminated. The Church was adamant. The Catholic Church before was just as adamant. Thomas had to be extremely cautious.

Thomas did not have enough time. The Spanish were coming. Sight showed. There would be a great victory. Thomas had to organize what would happen afterward. This is where Thomas did not have enough time. Thomas had to be able to direct England toward the New World. Spain must be limited. The way to limit was to colonize north of where Spain was. Thomas foresaw. The nation that would arise would be the most powerful in the world. The nation would self-destruct in the midst of a natural cataclysm. Thomas foresaw. A new nation would arise. This nation would include the western part of the old nation. It would also include the area to the south, down the tail of the northern continent. Thomas foresaw, the people of this nation would be greatly reduced by the natural disaster. Thomas saw, because of the problems, the people from the north would be greeted as saviors. The new nation would take form very quickly. The new nation would be dominant in the area, but not in the world. The new nation would be as an island, without connecting to other areas in the northern continent, where nobody would live, because of the result of man-made disaster on top of the natural disaster. Thomas was unable to think that what Thomas saw was real. Thomas saw an explosion destroying an entire city. Thomas believes that this is able to be done now. Thomas does not sense any hint of disbelief in the man who is recording.

(July 7, 2019) Thomas had an expectation. Thomas was going to continue. Cecil would be able to continue. The realm would continue to use the service of Cecil. William, the eldest son, was a fitting successor as Elizabeth wanted younger counsellors.

Thomas wanted to be of the group of elder statesmen who helped organize the thought of the counsellors. Thomas discovered that there was opposition to the inclusion of Thomas. There was a sense that Thomas would overpower the group, because the Queen was accustomed to deferring to Thomas. This meant that Thomas had to think of finding another way to have influence. Thomas hoped. Another way appeared. The son was repeatedly challenged. Thomas began to realize that the group of elder statesmen was the same group as the group that was challenging the son. Thomas originally thought that this was simply personal ambition. But a design eventually appeared. Venice was the likely origin. Thomas instructed a servant to find a way to plant this idea without it being of Thomas. Thomas eventually heard a man criticize the power of Venice to corrupt, using this group as an example. Thomas considered his warning to have been delivered.

EDIT: i have recorded the stories of dozens and dozens of ancestors (including the stories of all of my great-, 2x great- and 3x great-grandparents, and many further back), at the
Schmeeckle / Tobey / Stickler / Burkhalter family tree at ancestry.com. If you go to the page of any of these ancestors on this family tree (ancestry.com is available free at most public libraries) and click on "gallery," you will find the "ancestral memories" file that I have added. Click on that file and then click on "media." All of the individual stories open up online (without downloading), but some of the longer multi-generation files need to be downloaded to read. More and more stories are being regularly added, as time permits.

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[Neatras]

[Replying to post 61 by John Human]

So 3 questions: Can you get anyone on this forum to confirm being contacted by a demon? If not, in what way is that verification?

And how did you verify the claims made about Thomas Cecil?

You seem to be under the impression that "verification" is about making bold claims and then following it up with "I'm super legit, guys, trust me the demon says so!" instead of the rational "here are independent third parties to verify what I said." This is actually really absurd, mate.

[John Human]

You seem to be under the impression that "verification" is about making bold claims and then following it up with "I'm super legit, guys, trust me the demon says so!" instead of the rational "here are independent third parties to verify what I said." This is actually really absurd, mate.

I hope and trust that moderators are keeping an eye on what you wrote. You fabricate a point of view that you falsely attribute to me, and then you deride your concocted attribution as "absurd," without providing a single quotation from what I wrote to back up your remark.

It seems to me that concocted attributions are even more out of place around here than sophifistic obfuscations.

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[Neatras]

[Replying to post 63 by John Human]

So you haven't provided any answers to my three previous questions. If you want to demonstrate that your method of verification isn't illegitimate, then the way to go about that is to actually make the demonstration. I consider this detour a rhetorical technique that leads away from your intellectual responsibility to provide verification for your previous claims.

Try again.

[John Human]

[Replying to post 63 by John Human]

So you haven't provided any answers to my three previous questions. If you want to demonstrate that your method of verification isn't illegitimate, then the way to go about that is to actually make the demonstration. I consider this detour a rhetorical technique that leads away from your intellectual responsibility to provide verification for your previous claims.

Try again.

I provided an answer to your questions by inviting you to engage with what I wrote in post #28. You have not done so, which is no big surprise: Your concocted attribution in your previous post makes very clear your lack of good faith, which in turn gives the impression that your presence on this thread is intended as harassment. Please let it not be so.

I request that the moderators take appropriate action regarding the lack of good faith implied by Neatras's concocted attribution together with Neatras's continuing failure to engage with what I have written, and the lack of respect implied in Neatras's disdainful closing, "Try again."
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[Neatras]

[Replying to post 65 by John Human]

Here's the problem.

It is my understanding that Ancient Demon has already directly communicated with a number of people who are active in this forum.

This is an unsupported assertion.

Here is an example of a story very recently received (finished yesterday) from a prominent ancestor, Thomas Cecil, Baron Burghley (1542-1623):

This entire wall is unsupported, unless you're willing to provide external verification right now.

At this moment, the sum total of your claims have amounted to you asserting without providing external verification, and then reacting to requests for verification as though you were attacked.

Try again. With feeling, this time. We're all in this together.

[John Human]

At this moment, the sum total of your claims have amounted to you asserting without providing external verification, and then reacting to requests for verification as though you were attacked.

At this point you have moved from concocted attributions to flat-out lying, while continuing to avoid engaging with what I wrote in post #28.

Please stop harassing me.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 67 by John Human]

I really can't allow you to drop multiple claims without allowing for verification. Your post in 28 consists of yet more claims that I should try and contact a deceased grandfather. I highly doubt you'd accept if I came up without any intelligible data. After all, I'm not interested in pretending that the dead are trying to contact me, so I have no predilection that it's going to work. You, on the other hand, clearly do think that contact with the dead is possible, and you're therefore ideologically obligated to state that I'm lying, or 'closed off' to the information you think is readily available.

Therefore, verification cannot be achieved through this avenue, nor will anyone on this forum (barring a couple exceptions I hardly dare to mention) expect that this dialogue will be progressed by participants actively pretending to speak to dead relatives.

This topic is not going to be moved past this point, I'm really not interested in you playing the victim and intimidating me by trying to spur moderator action. I'm engaged in this dialogue, and so far you are pivotal in demonstrating whether or not your means of demonstrating your claims are legitimate. Don't let me down.

[John Human]

[Replying to post 67 by John Human]

Your post in 28 consists of yet more claims that I should try and contact a deceased grandfather.

You have taken the step of actually referring to what I wrote in post #28. Unfortunately, you continue to avoid quoting anything that I actually said as you persist in a pattern of misrepresentation of what I said ("claims that I should," etc.).

You might be inclined to try again, if you choose to communicate respectfully.

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[Neatras]

[Replying to post 69 by John Human]

I'll consider that when I get home. In the meantime, please verify that your demon has contacted multiple active users of this forum. That's the really juicy claim, and the one you don't seem to acknowledge you made.