Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

--

[William]

[Tcg]

That is a view into the future results of Progressive/Socialist policies. All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24. Disease and craziness/dumbness (Matthew 9:32-35) is a symptom of possession. When dumbness and violence go away, then you are getting a handle on the demons.

Certainly, you must be referring to Matthew 8:28. Oddly enough, in the Mark 5 and Luke 8 telling of the same story there is only one man involved. In any case, the Bible is not considered authoritative in this sub-forum. If you are attempting to show that the existence of demons can be tested, you'll need to present evidence from another source. And, the circular argument that demons cause violent craziness and since crazy violence exists demons exist, won't cut it either.


Tcg

There is no evidence you have a spirit either, but maybe except for you, I would assume 99% of reasonable people will admit to thinking they have a spirit, for which they have apparently no physical evidence that would stand up to your criticism. Plato referred to the good spirits, daimons, from the gods, as in divine inspiration. As for demons, a good resource would be the book of Enoch, which is not within the bible. Or, as for the "educated and intelligent", as you yourself claim, they often refer to cultural media, and one media book, "The Exorcist", might give you a glimpse into the views of the media. Another media book, would be a theory, called, Darwinian theory of evolution. Both are apparently flights of fancy, such as being theoretical theater, but both have their followers. Or just look up demons in wiki media. Apparently, some of those "spirits" are a little off, or you could say evil, or you could say, demented, or you could say, are demons the relics of the tryst between angels and the daughters of men. According to the dictionary, a non-biblical source, the tormented are probably possessed/controlled by demons.

demon definition: an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.

Argumentum ad populum (with a dash of ad hominem thrown in for good measure), definitions, dissing Darwinian theory and hunches are not verifiable evidence that can be used to test for the existence of demons.

Beyond that, I don't recall saying anything about, "educated and intelligent". Perhaps you can point out where I did so.


Tcg

[Purple Knight]

I thought it was simply the claim that at least some paranormal things can be tested.

Correct; almost anything can be tested. Too bad the plant thing was debunked - that is one sensitive polygraph! Knowing that, I wonder if, in the area of polygraph tests, there's the same sort of biases against unattractive people (or any other group that traditionally receives bias) as exist in the general population for the simple reason that the polygraph may pick up the operator. I know polygraphs have a lot of flaws, but I don't know if that one's been explored or not.

But yes, point is, throw away your expectations and test everything. Your rat example proves that expectations affect results. That's why I try not to have any expectations. I also wonder about that homeopathic rat example. I want to run the same test, single-blind only, with the humans as the subjects. The control group is random humans giving the treatment. The experimental group is humans giving the homeopathic treatment who believe most strongly that it's all bunk.

Test everything.

[Miles]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]

How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.

However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.

Evocation


Apparently one can do this with angels too.

Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.

Where does the Bible say demons reside in swine?

Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
.

You are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".

What difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.



.

Matthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.

Just because they can, aside from the two unfortunate swine of Matthew 8:32, doesn't mean they do. You said "the Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine," implying that, beside the two swine of Matthew 8, demons reside in other swine. And I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for this.



.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]

How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.

However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.

Evocation


Apparently one can do this with angels too.

Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.

Where does the Bible say demons reside in swine?

Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
.

You are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".

What difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.



.

Matthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.

Just because they can, aside from the two unfortunate swine of Matthew 8:32, doesn't mean they do. You said "the Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine," implying that, beside the two swine of Matthew 8, demons reside in other swine. And I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for this.
.

Apparently, Luke, the teller of other people's stales, also told a different story of one man, who was possessed of a myriad of demons, called "legions", who were cast into a "herd of many swine". Apparently, animals, an ass, can speak by the means of spirits (Number 22:28). The alternate home for the demons, would be the abyss, and the demons would surely prefer swine instead, but once inserted, may have second thoughts.

[2ndpillar2]

That is a view into the future results of Progressive/Socialist policies. All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24. Disease and craziness/dumbness (Matthew 9:32-35) is a symptom of possession. When dumbness and violence go away, then you are getting a handle on the demons.

Certainly, you must be referring to Matthew 8:28. Oddly enough, in the Mark 5 and Luke 8 telling of the same story there is only one man involved. In any case, the Bible is not considered authoritative in this sub-forum. If you are attempting to show that the existence of demons can be tested, you'll need to present evidence from another source. And, the circular argument that demons cause violent craziness and since crazy violence exists demons exist, won't cut it either.


Tcg

There is no evidence you have a spirit either, but maybe except for you, I would assume 99% of reasonable people will admit to thinking they have a spirit, for which they have apparently no physical evidence that would stand up to your criticism. Plato referred to the good spirits, daimons, from the gods, as in divine inspiration. As for demons, a good resource would be the book of Enoch, which is not within the bible. Or, as for the "educated and intelligent", as you yourself claim, they often refer to cultural media, and one media book, "The Exorcist", might give you a glimpse into the views of the media. Another media book, would be a theory, called, Darwinian theory of evolution. Both are apparently flights of fancy, such as being theoretical theater, but both have their followers. Or just look up demons in wiki media. Apparently, some of those "spirits" are a little off, or you could say evil, or you could say, demented, or you could say, are demons the relics of the tryst between angels and the daughters of men. According to the dictionary, a non-biblical source, the tormented are probably possessed/controlled by demons.

demon definition: an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.

Argumentum ad populum (with a dash of ad hominem thrown in for good measure), definitions, dissing Darwinian theory and hunches are not verifiable evidence that can be used to test for the existence of demons.

Beyond that, I don't recall saying anything about, "educated and intelligent". Perhaps you can point out where I did so.


Tcg

Within approximately a week, you said you would rather rely on education and intelligence. If you can't remember, having me do your own leg work, would only provide a short time relief. If you look it up yourself, it might help improve your memory process. As for theories, which by definition, are unsubstantiated hunches (hypothesis), your no God or devil (gods) foundation, Darwinism, often embraced by many Marxists, antitheist, seems to be a little less than solid, than an actual phenomenon that has been noted worldwide, for millennium. Whatever rocks your boat.

[Tcg]

There is no evidence you have a spirit either, but maybe except for you, I would assume 99% of reasonable people will admit to thinking they have a spirit, for which they have apparently no physical evidence that would stand up to your criticism. Plato referred to the good spirits, daimons, from the gods, as in divine inspiration. As for demons, a good resource would be the book of Enoch, which is not within the bible. Or, as for the "educated and intelligent", as you yourself claim, they often refer to cultural media, and one media book, "The Exorcist", might give you a glimpse into the views of the media. Another media book, would be a theory, called, Darwinian theory of evolution. Both are apparently flights of fancy, such as being theoretical theater, but both have their followers. Or just look up demons in wiki media. Apparently, some of those "spirits" are a little off, or you could say evil, or you could say, demented, or you could say, are demons the relics of the tryst between angels and the daughters of men. According to the dictionary, a non-biblical source, the tormented are probably possessed/controlled by demons.

demon definition: an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.

Argumentum ad populum (with a dash of ad hominem thrown in for good measure), definitions, dissing Darwinian theory and hunches are not verifiable evidence that can be used to test for the existence of demons.

Beyond that, I don't recall saying anything about, "educated and intelligent". Perhaps you can point out where I did so.


Tcg

Within approximately a week, you said you would rather rely on education and intelligence.

Yes, which is not a claim of being "educated and intelligent" as you are implying. What I actually said was this, "Additionally given that none of the things you've mentioned are a reality I'm quite comfortable trusting my intelligence and education." Even if my intelligence were low and my education poor, I'd rely on them rather than drawing conclusions based on that which isn't a reality.

If you can't remember, having me do your own leg work, would only provide a short time relief. If you look it up yourself, it might help improve your memory process.

All your legwork revealed is a misrepresentation on your part.

As for theories, which by definition, are unsubstantiated hunches (hypothesis), your no God or devil (gods) foundation, Darwinism, often embraced by many Marxists, antitheist, seems to be a little less than solid, than an actual phenomenon that has been noted worldwide, for millennium. Whatever rocks your boat.

It's astonishing the things you have assigned to me. None of which resolves the fact that you have yet to provide verifiable evidence which can be used to test for the existence of demons. My boat isn't rocking at all.


Tcg

[William]

All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24.

Is anyone immune to that? How can we be sure that all of what you posted was not in itself demon induced craziness?

1 John 4
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Compare that with this;


Matthew 8:28 - 34
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?



According to the lore then, this would suggest that the demons which confessed that Jesus was the son of God, were themselves also of God.

This does allow the question to be raised, assuming demons are real;

Q: Could the whole event of Jesus and Christianity be a demonic ruse?

Or:

Q: Are there Demons sent by [ambassadors of] God in order to help assist folk in the direction God would like them to proceed?

[of course either way, more questions have to be asked.]

[Tcg]

Test everything.

Perhaps, but what process can be used to test the existence of demons? Certainly not hooking up a polygraph which is designed to monitor heart rate and perspiration to a plant which has neither a heart rate nor perspires. What test can be designed which would test the existence of demons?


Tcg

[Miles]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]

How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.

However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.

Evocation


Apparently one can do this with angels too.

Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.

Where does the Bible say demons reside in swine?

Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
.

You are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".

What difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.



.

Matthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.

Just because they can, aside from the two unfortunate swine of Matthew 8:32, doesn't mean they do. You said "the Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine," implying that, beside the two swine of Matthew 8, demons reside in other swine. And I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for this.
.

Apparently, Luke, the teller of other people's stales, also told a different story of one man, who was possessed of a myriad of demons, called "legions", who were cast into a "herd of many swine".

So it appears.

Apparently, animals, an ass, can speak by the means of spirits (Number 22:28).

Ah, the spirit in Numbers 22:28 refers to god, who makes the donkey speak.

The alternate home for the demons, would be the abyss, and the demons would surely prefer swine instead, but once inserted, may have second thoughts.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's all speculation.


.