When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #171Certainly, you must be referring to Matthew 8:28. Oddly enough, in the Mark 5 and Luke 8 telling of the same story there is only one man involved. In any case, the Bible is not considered authoritative in this sub-forum. If you are attempting to show that the existence of demons can be tested, you'll need to present evidence from another source. And, the circular argument that demons cause violent craziness and since crazy violence exists demons exist, won't cut it either.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 am That is a view into the future results of Progressive/Socialist policies. All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24. Disease and craziness/dumbness (Matthew 9:32-35) is a symptom of possession. When dumbness and violence go away, then you are getting a handle on the demons.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #172That's a fascinating bit of entertainment, however, given that no one is claiming that Tory is a demon it's hard to see the relevance.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:18 amYes it can be tested. Most things can be tested once one puts one's mind to actually testing them instead of dismissing them.
Mythbusters tested whether a plant can react to having harm wished on it.
Spiritual presences could be tested in a similar way. You could even use these plants. Get the best plants that have the most consistent reactions. Heck, breed them for it.
Now put hundreds of them in a room and measure them all at once.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #173I thought it was simply the claim that at least some paranormal things can be tested. If the demons expectation differs in a detectable way from what a doctor or a pharmacist would expect, then we can run a test. If there is no expectation of difference, then they might as well be the same thing. If a demon causes strep throat, but it's still detectable by a bacterial culture and antibiotics clear up the disease, then what's the difference? I mean, we could wax philosophic about how the antibiotics make the demon lose interest or something, but what's the difference?Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:54 pmThat's a fascinating bit of entertainment, however, given that no one is claiming that Tory is a demon it's hard to see the relevance.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:18 amMythbusters tested whether a plant can react to having harm wished on it.
This bit of entertainment involving a polygraph is much funnier although just like the Mythbusters bit it has nothing to do with demons.
That episode actually debunked the plant thing, by the way ("Myth busted!"). Whoever uploaded that clip cut the end off. The Mythbusters figured out that the polygraph was sensitive enough that it was picking up the operator even though he wasn't directly connected. They isolated the polygraph from everything but the plant and the readings flatlined.
If believers (in woo or in Christianity) have to rely on improperly shielded instruments to detect their results, then maybe there's a cautionary tale there somewhere.
I'm reminded of a paper that I ran into a few years ago. The paper as published was nominally about using homeopathic treatments on rats (and it was published in an alternative medicine journal, which I find hilarious), but the real purpose of the experiment was to demonstrate that single-blind experiments aren't sufficiently controlled. While nearly all human studies are double-blind and neither the patients nor evaluating doctors know if the patient is getting the medicine or a control, many animal studies are conducted single-blind: the animal obviously doesn't know which treatment it's getting, but the researcher does. It's sometimes assumed that trained researchers are able to effectively remove their own bias in an animal study, but that paper demonstrates that they can't. When the researchers knew which rats were getting which treatments, the rats getting the homeopathic treatment did better than the ones getting a placebo. When the researchers were blinded, the homeopathic treatment was unsurprisingly indistinguishable from placebo. If trained lab scientists can't evaluate data without injecting bias, what hope do the rest of us have? Fortunately, that's not a rhetorical question. According to the paper, the answer is experiments that are double-blinded and according to Mythbusters, it's properly shielded instruments.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #174The intellect cannot solve this problem because it is the wrong language. The language of art, music, religion, literature, nature and consciousness are more appropriate languages. Scientists don't have more authority in these areas simply because they are scientists. The local baker may have more spiritual awareness than Stephen Weinberg. A dolphin may be more aware of spiritual reality than most of us. In fact, the scientist may be at a disadvantage because he runs the risk of having his/her thinking ossified by scientism.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:43 am Sounds like a problem for those who make claims of gods existing and such.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #175Sounds like yet another problem for those who claim gods exist.mgb wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:12 amThe intellect cannot solve this problem because it is the wrong language.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:43 am Sounds like a problem for those who make claims of gods existing and such.
But yeah, I don't see a lot of intellect coming from god claimers.
I agree, the language of religion would be the best to speak about religious claims.The language of art, music, religion, literature, nature and consciousness are more appropriate languages.
And the language of truth'd best be used to proclaim something as truth.
I never said they did. As I note a lot of scientific discoveries have proven previous religious claims errant.Scientists don't have more authority in these areas simply because they are scientists.
It always amuses me when theists refer to "scientism", as the thrust fails to show religious claims are truth.The local baker may have more spiritual awareness than Stephen Weinberg. A dolphin may be more aware of spiritual reality than most of us. In fact, the scientist may be at a disadvantage because he runs the risk of having his/her thinking ossified by scientism.
The very moment a religious claim's proven scientifically valid, they'll make that scientist the pope.
Instead we get excuses as to why the theist can't show their claims are truth.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #176It is a question of what language people are willing to use. The intellect has failed to resolve ontological questions, that is why philosophers constantly disagree.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:32 am Sounds like yet another problem for those who claim gods exist.
Truth has many languages. Science deals with primitive truths about matter. Religion (I use the word cautiously) deals with ontological questions.And the language of truth'd best be used to proclaim something as truth.
Minor claims perhaps, that don't matter.I never said they did. As I note a lot of scientific discoveries have proven previous religious claims errant.
Religious claims cannot be shown to be true or false. It has to do with how convincing a world view is. To decide upon this it is necessary to go far beyond the intellect because the intellect only deals with primitive things.It always amuses me when theists refer to "scientism", as the thrust fails to show religious claims are truth.
Many atheists' arguments rely not on 'reason' or rationality, but on rhetorical force. Dawkins is notorious for this.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #177Looks like a word salad designed to deflect away from the truth that religious claims can't be shown to be truth.
And fails to show the "major" claims approach within light years of truth.Minor claims perhaps, that don't matter.JoeyKnothead wrote: I never said they did. As I note a lot of scientific discoveries have proven previous religious claims errant.
Sure they can. When religious claims introduce contradictions, one of em is certainly false.Religious claims cannot be shown to be true or false.JoeyKnothead wrote: It always amuses me when theists refer to "scientism", as the thrust fails to show religious claims are truth.
Truth is a matter of fact, not how proud one is for a claim.It has to do with how convincing a world view is.
Philosophical garbage.To decide upon this it is necessary to go far beyond the intellect because the intellect only deals with primitive things.
All I see is excuse making. Face it, if religious claims were truth, we wouldn't call it faith.
As you spout your hilosophical rhetoric in order to dismiss the failure of religious claims to reflect truth.Many atheists' arguments rely not on 'reason' or rationality, but on rhetorical force. Dawkins is notorious for this.
Let me guess, you just completed philosophy 101.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #178There is no evidence you have a spirit either, but maybe except for you, I would assume 99% of reasonable people will admit to thinking they have a spirit, for which they have apparently no physical evidence that would stand up to your criticism. Plato referred to the good spirits, daimons, from the gods, as in divine inspiration. As for demons, a good resource would be the book of Enoch, which is not within the bible. Or, as for the "educated and intelligent", as you yourself claim, they often refer to cultural media, and one media book, "The Exorcist", might give you a glimpse into the views of the media. Another media book, would be a theory, called, Darwinian theory of evolution. Both are apparently flights of fancy, such as being theoretical theater, but both have their followers. Or just look up demons in wiki media. Apparently, some of those "spirits" are a little off, or you could say evil, or you could say, demented, or you could say, are demons the relics of the tryst between angels and the daughters of men. According to the dictionary, a non-biblical source, the tormented are probably possessed/controlled by demons.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:55 pmCertainly, you must be referring to Matthew 8:28. Oddly enough, in the Mark 5 and Luke 8 telling of the same story there is only one man involved. In any case, the Bible is not considered authoritative in this sub-forum. If you are attempting to show that the existence of demons can be tested, you'll need to present evidence from another source. And, the circular argument that demons cause violent craziness and since crazy violence exists demons exist, won't cut it either.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 am That is a view into the future results of Progressive/Socialist policies. All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24. Disease and craziness/dumbness (Matthew 9:32-35) is a symptom of possession. When dumbness and violence go away, then you are getting a handle on the demons.
Tcg
demon definition: an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #179Everyone is subject to demons/devils. Matthew 4 shows Yeshua being tested by the devil himself, yet Yeshua taught that all you had to do was resist the devil and he would flee for an easier target. Apparently, there are a lot of easy targets running around.brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:27 pmIs anyone immune to that? How can we be sure that all of what you posted was not in itself demon induced craziness?2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 am All demon induced craziness, much like the violent craziness of those two demon possessed guys of Matthew 8:24.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #180Matthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:51 pmWhat difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 amYou are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".Miles wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:20 pmWhere does the Bible say demons reside in swine?2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 pmDemons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.William wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:17 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]
How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.
However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.
Evocation
Apparently one can do this with angels too.
Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
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