Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

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Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

Post #1

Post by Swami »

A few months has passed since I posted a debate challenge to atheists regarding religious experience. To date, no atheist has taken up my challenge perhaps because there is some truth to what I'm saying. I hope that this will serve as a lesson to those so called skeptics and scientists who are so quick to dismiss religious claims.

Here is one interesting evidence of a woman who dropped scientific materialism after discovering the true nature of consciousness:
I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?
Last edited by Swami on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #61

Post by Clownboat »

Swami wrote:
Here is administrator perspective that supports my entire point:
otseng wrote:
marco wrote:
Should we expect people to change their religious views on a forum such as this?

I don't think people should come here expecting to change anyone's views. We might be able to influence it, but we can't expect someone to completely alter their views simply because of what is posted here.

Though someone can present convincing logical arguments all day, we don't form our beliefs entirely on logic. This goes for Christians as well as non-Christians. We have life experiences that impact us, whether for good or bad. Our relationships affect what we believe.


Skeptics,
If you are not convinced by argumentation, then consider that "debate" itself is the problem. It is limited. Knowing this, and still choosing to not do the field research that I've been suggesting .. this act shows nothing but willful ignorance. This type of person does not want to be convinced. Linda Johnsen and Dr. Eben Alexander (both former atheists) did not arrive at their positions through debate. This point and the moderator clarification that I copied above is more than enough validation.


I'm worried about completing the field research you have done.
Will I become arrogent and pompous if I complete it do you think?

Will it potentially make me suffer from a form of religious paranoia where I think I'm special and have a special message for everyone? I wouldn't appreciate that if so.

You want to blame debate it seems, but you don't seem to recognize it for the tool that it is that helps one to sharpen their own thinking. This is especially unfortunate here in this discussion.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #62

Post by Clownboat »

Earthscienceguy wrote:Why should any atheist believe that the Universe is god and god is the universe? This belief does not solve any of the problems with atheist theory of origins. If you are proposing some sort of Universia to put it in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation Series" terms, this belief does not solve any of the problems associated with the problem of what existed before the universe to produce in your case the Universia that we see. Or maybe there is a Multiversia, but again this belief is plagued by proof of a multiversia out there.

This belief really proposes nothing new. This belief does reinforce the Christian idea that there had to be an intelligence behind creation.


You are not talking to children here, and therefore you will not fool us into the idea that there being an intelligence behind some imagined creation event is a Christian idea. Religions much older than Christianity are evidence just as much as your preferred religion. That should give you pause, not make you feel special (regardless if your claim above has merit or not).

The Greek philosopher Xenophanes of Colophon (c. 570-478 BCE) once wrote:

Mortals suppose that the gods are born and have clothes and voices and shapes like their own. But if oxen, horses and lions had hands or could paint with their hands and fashion works as men do, horses would paint horse-like images of gods and oxen oxen-like ones, and each would fashion bodies like their own. The Ethiopians consider the gods flat-nosed and black; the Thracians blue-eyed and red-haired.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #63

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 60 by Swami]

Again this offers no explanation of how the universe came into being. You can talk of truth but has to be rationally cohesive this is not.

There is much scientific evidence for the belief that there is more to this universe than what we can see. Science has determined for this universe to exist then there must be more dimensions than what we can see. So I do not have a problem with the idea that there is more to this universe than what we can measure.

But because the theory that is being put forward here is not an internally consistent theory because it gives no answer for creation so it has to be rejected. If universia has to be rejected then Christianity says that if someone is hearing voices that cannot be seen and they are not crazy then it has to be demons. I did not assume lunacy, so that meant demons according to the Christian worldview.

So until universia has some way to exist outside of time, people having outer body experiences without seeing Jesus have to be either seeing or being led around by demons or they are just crazy.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #64

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 62 by Clownboat]

Christianity is Judeo-Christian so that does make it one of the oldest religions in the world.

The problem for you is the creation event and the lack of a natural process that can produce the universe in which we live.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #65

Post by Swami »

Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote: What scientists have documented are the baby steps that lead you into your full potential. For instance, where meditation has been documented to increase awareness when it comes to being more aware of unconscious mental activity, the full potential is to increase your awareness to where you can be aware of the entire universe.
That doesn't mean anything until there is a step by step guild that produce results on demand.
I have provided the steps but they require effort and practice to follow successfully. Even at the level that I am, it can take anywhere from a second to 30 minutes to achieve a pure conscious state.
Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:I brought this up because it seems you gave up after trying once or twice. You make it sound like meditation did nothing for you. If you've experienced the baby steps, then why stop there?
Because it doesn't do anything for me other than get me nice and relaxed.
This would not be an indication that the experience is not possible, but it only tells me what stage you are at with meditation. There is clearly much more to meditation than just relaxation or what you've experienced because scientists have documented much more.

The problem might be that you are expecting something that doesn't take any effort or practice.
Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:Here are 4 stages you need to know to reach some of the unitive experiences I refer to...
Knowing what to look out for doesn't help. I need the methods for repeatability.
The 4 concepts that I referred you to involve 3 steps which are explained. These 3 steps lead to a pure conscious state. These steps and the philosophy behind them are explained by the Hindu sage Pantanjali, in his classic text called Yoga Sutras. Pantanjali describes many "objects" of focus that the 3 steps can be applied to. The only thing I have suggested here is to focus on yourself. You will then reach a state that's similar to that reached during transcendental meditation.
Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:I will not continue debate with anyone who has not shown any willingness to learn and experience these things for themselves. The entire lesson behind this discussion is that the experience will expose the error of materialism and this will convince you to leave atheism.
Not a good start. How are you going to achieve any of that if you aren't able to produce a repeatable experiment? More to the point, how would you imagine a repeatable experiment is going to falsify materialism?
In my view, science has already proven the error of materialism when every experiment and theory offered to account for consciousness has failed. So I can either let Western science continue defeating itself or I can take the Eastern approach and show how consciousness is a part of everything. The way that this can be confirmed is by showing states of consciousness that involve merging with any object, from a pencil to the entire Universe.
Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:It is limited. Knowing this, and still choosing to not do the field research that I've been suggesting .. this act shows nothing but willful ignorance.
That's where science comes in. I don't need to do a single scientific experiment myself, others can put the effort in for me, produce empirical results and convince me with zero effort on my part. This isn't willful ignorance when you have no experiment results to show for. I have chosen not to do any field research on cosmology, yet cosmologists have convinced me just fine. Guess what the difference is?
The problem we have is that scientists have not yet proven what I'm saying. The scientific study of meditation is in its infancy. Even if the scientists get around to exploring it for themselves, the results would be limited because not every part of the experience can be documented using third-person methods.

Despite this, I've offered evidence from what scientists have documented. If you want "more" evidence to convince you and you don't get it when it is available then that is willful ignorance. Besides this, first-hand experiencing a strong type of evidence. Instead of just "reading" about it and seeing it from a distance, you are in the driver's seat getting a first-hand view. This is why such experiences have been able to convert atheists of all types.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #66

Post by Swami »

EarthScienceguy wrote: There is much scientific evidence for the belief that there is more to this universe than what we can see. Science has determined for this universe to exist then there must be more dimensions than what we can see. So I do not have a problem with the idea that there is more to this universe than what we can measure.
The only way we "know" something exists is when we are aware of it. Seeing with our eyes, naked eye or not, is not the only way to be aware of something. What scientists have theorized using math or reason is also done with "awareness" so even theorizing falls into my point. Everything is based in consciousness.
EarthScienceguy wrote:But because the theory that is being put forward here is not an internally consistent theory because it gives no answer for creation so it has to be rejected. If universia has to be rejected then Christianity says that if someone is hearing voices that cannot be seen and they are not crazy then it has to be demons. I did not assume lunacy, so that meant demons according to the Christian worldview.

So until universia has some way to exist outside of time, people having outer body experiences without seeing Jesus have to be either seeing or being led around by demons or they are just crazy.
You are deviating from the lesson here. Besides that, everything you are telling me is Western nonsense. Although you are closer to the truth than many atheists when you bring up God, but then you fall into the trap when you try to put matter and God outside of consciousness. Based on my experience, both are products of consciousness.

First discover the nature of consciousness. When you are able transcend self, then come back and offer your perspective.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #67

Post by Bust Nak »

Swami wrote: I have provided the steps but they require effort and practice to follow successfully. Even at the level that I am, it can take anywhere from a second to 30 minutes to achieve a pure conscious state.
That doesn't sound very controlled to me.
This would not be an indication that the experience is not possible, but it only tells me what stage you are at with meditation. There is clearly much more to meditation than just relaxation or what you've experienced because scientists have documented much more.

The problem might be that you are expecting something that doesn't take any effort or practice.
Again, that's where science comes in. Others can do the hard work and I can just wait for the results.
The 4 concepts that I referred you to involve 3 steps which are explained. These 3 steps lead to a pure conscious state. These steps and the philosophy behind them are explained by the Hindu sage Pantanjali, in his classic text called Yoga Sutras. Pantanjali describes many "objects" of focus that the 3 steps can be applied to. The only thing I have suggested here is to focus on yourself. You will then reach a state that's similar to that reached during transcendental meditation.
Or you can skip it by taking mind altering drugs?
In my view, science has already proven the error of materialism when every experiment and theory offered to account for consciousness has failed.
Then we keep going until we solve it. If medication does generate testable results then materialism can get there; if it is beyond materialism then any information you gain medication is useless because it cannot be verified objectively.
The way that this can be confirmed is by showing states of consciousness that involve merging with any object, from a pencil to the entire Universe.
What does that even mean? You know what it feels like to be a pencil?
The problem we have is that scientists have not yet proven what I'm saying. The scientific study of meditation is in its infancy. Even if the scientists get around to exploring it for themselves, the results would be limited because not every part of the experience can be documented using third-person methods.
But third-person method is exactly what you need to demonstrate your thesis scientifically.
Despite this, I've offered evidence from what scientists have documented. If you want "more" evidence to convince you and you don't get it when it is available then that is willful ignorance.
I've already look through what you've presented though, that which can be documented using third-person methods. Put more effort in.
Instead of just "reading" about it and seeing it from a distance, you are in the driver's seat getting a first-hand view.
Nah, I pass.
This is why such experiences have been able to convert atheists of all types.
That doesn't mean anything until you have solid result from "third-person methods," as you called it.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #68

Post by Clownboat »

EarthScienceguy wrote:
[Replying to post 62 by Clownboat]

Christianity is Judeo-Christian so that does make it one of the oldest religions in the world.

The problem for you is the creation event and the lack of a natural process that can produce the universe in which we live.


Your reply seems very dishonest, and here is why:
This was your claim: "This belief really proposes nothing new. This belief does reinforce the Christian idea that there had to be an intelligence behind creation."

My point was that this would also be evidence for other creation myths. Many of which are older than Christianity which didn't make it on to the scene until a couple thousand years ago.
Cut/paste: ...you will not fool us into the idea that there being an intelligence behind some imagined creation event is a Christian idea.

Again, slight of hand like this might work on children, but not so well here. Instead of a reasoned argument, you attempt to make my point to be about how old Christianity is, which obviously completely misses the mark. Perhaps a defense mechanism at play to protect beliefs?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #69

Post by otseng »

Swami wrote: Here is administrator perspective that supports my entire point:
otseng wrote:
marco wrote: Should we expect people to change their religious views on a forum such as this?
I don't think people should come here expecting to change anyone's views. We might be able to influence it, but we can't expect someone to completely alter their views simply because of what is posted here.

Though someone can present convincing logical arguments all day, we don't form our beliefs entirely on logic. This goes for Christians as well as non-Christians. We have life experiences that impact us, whether for good or bad. Our relationships affect what we believe.
Skeptics,
If you are not convinced by argumentation, then consider that "debate" itself is the problem. It is limited. Knowing this, and still choosing to not do the field research that I've been suggesting .. this act shows nothing but willful ignorance. This type of person does not want to be convinced. Linda Johnsen and Dr. Eben Alexander (both former atheists) did not arrive at their positions through debate. This point and the moderator clarification that I copied above is more than enough validation.
Please do not misstate my position. Debating and logic are not the problem. There is a place for them, but beliefs are not formed entirely through logic and reasoning.

Again, people should not come here expecting to change peoples' views. And you certainly cannot say others are willfully ignorant because they are not convinced by your beliefs.

I will add that simply sharing your experience and asking others to have a religious experience have little value here on this forum. If you're going to post in the S&R subforum, you'll need to back it up with empirical evidence.

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Post #70

Post by Swami »

Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:This would not be an indication that the experience is not possible, but it only tells me what stage you are at with meditation. There is clearly much more to meditation than just relaxation or what you've experienced because scientists have documented much more.

The problem might be that you are expecting something that doesn't take any effort or practice.
Again, that's where science comes in. Others can do the hard work and I can just wait for the results.
That is one way to become convinced, and what I have explained is another way. I have proven this by with Linda Johnsen's case. She did not need others to convince her. I can say that you don't even know if you would become convinced after your own experience. How would you know if you have never experienced? Based on the evidence of the type of people who have become convinced, I can confidently say that you would most likely become convinced.

Imagine that someone tells me that their car was stolen. They even have video of this. Do I need science to tell me that
Bust Nak wrote:
Swami wrote:The way that this can be confirmed is by showing states of consciousness that involve merging with any object, from a pencil to the entire Universe.
What does that even mean? You know what it feels like to be a pencil?
To some degree, yes. The pencil doesn't exist independent of consciousness. When I reach the level of consciousness that is part of everything If you want to understand this more the best way is to experience it for yourself. This requires practical knowledge.




The problem we have is that scientists have not yet proven what I'm saying. The scientific study of meditation is in its infancy. Even if the scientists get around to exploring it for themselves, the results would be limited because not every part of the experience can be documented using third-person methods.
But third-person method is exactly what you need to demonstrate your thesis scientifically.
Despite this, I've offered evidence from what scientists have documented. If you want "more" evidence to convince you and you don't get it when it is available then that is willful ignorance.
I've already look through what you've presented though, that which can be documented using third-person methods. Put more effort in.
Instead of just "reading" about it and seeing it from a distance, you are in the driver's seat getting a first-hand view.
Nah, I pass.
This is why such experiences have been able to convert atheists of all types.
That doesn't mean anything until you have solid result from "third-person methods," as you called it.[/quote]

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