Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

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Swami
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Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

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Post by Swami »

A few months has passed since I posted a debate challenge to atheists regarding religious experience. To date, no atheist has taken up my challenge perhaps because there is some truth to what I'm saying. I hope that this will serve as a lesson to those so called skeptics and scientists who are so quick to dismiss religious claims.

Here is one interesting evidence of a woman who dropped scientific materialism after discovering the true nature of consciousness:
I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?
Last edited by Swami on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #71

Post by Swami »

[quote="Bust Nak"]
I am ignoring your posts. Everybody here has agreed with the view that religious and mystical experiences can convert atheists to theists. You seem to be the only one that doesn't get the lesson. If I am the teacher, and one of the students doesn't understand the lesson, can the teacher be to blame when the student refuses to do his homework? Does it help that the same student wants "others" to do the work for him?

Many don't realize that no amount of evidence and debate will convince someone when it involves having to change a worldview.

Here is my empirical evidence:
How many atheists have changed to theism because of a "debate"? ZERO.
How many atheists have changed to theism because of experience (the same type of experiences that Bust Nak refuses to have)? Many.


To the audience:
To stay within the rules I will debate. However, I will not continue discussion when it involves bullying or dishonest and endless debate.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #72

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 70 by Swami]

People can agree that experiences, which some label as being mystical or supernatural, have motivated some people who identified as gnostic atheists to become at least agnostic atheists if not gnostic theists. This observation in no way demonstrates that the causes of those experiences were actually mystical or supernatural. As such, there is no objective justification for labeling those experiences as being mystical or supernatural. Therefore, the statement, "Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism," is misleading in that it smuggles in the assumption that the experience was actually mystical or supernatural. So, while it is true that some atheists convert to theism as a result of some experience they label as being mystical or supernatural, this truth does not validate the objective existence of the mystical or the supernatural.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #73

Post by Swami »

bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 70 by Swami]

People can agree that experiences, which some label as being mystical or supernatural, have motivated some people who identified as gnostic atheists to become at least agnostic atheists if not gnostic theists. This observation in no way demonstrates that the causes of those experiences were actually mystical or supernatural. As such, there is no objective justification for labeling those experiences as being mystical or supernatural. Therefore, the statement, "Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism," is misleading in that it smuggles in the assumption that the experience was actually mystical or supernatural. So, while it is true that some atheists convert to theism as a result of some experience they label as being mystical or supernatural, this truth does not validate the objective existence of the mystical or the supernatural.
What you are explaining is what I call unreasonable skepticism. Do you need a scientists with you at every moment of your life to confirm that you're not hallucinating your current experience?

If you have no history of mental or neurological illness, no drug consumption, and you are in the waking state (not asleep), then why question the reality of the experience? If none of the factors I mentioned are present, then the experience should be taken seriously. I have no reason to question the experience anymore than I would question the experience of typing this message to you.

If people want more validation on top of the experience that they already have then I encourage everyone to refer to some of my other topics. All of the topics are evidence for my worldview. I have also discussed how meditation can be used to replicate and test these experiences.

1. The information of the Universe is already in us: Acquired Savant Syndrome and Omniscience

2. Reality is not subjective nor objective

3. Using Field Research to discover Consciousness

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #74

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 72 by Swami]

It is not about being unreasonably skeptical but about being intellectually honest. With everyday sort of claims such as, "I saw a dog," it is reasonable to believe that a dog was responsible for that experience because dogs have an implicit empirical basis. On the other hand, it would not be reasonable to believe the claim, "I saw a fire breathing dragon," because there is no implicit empirical basis for such a creature. For those sorts of claims, it would only be responsible to remain skeptical until it has been demonstrated to be true.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

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Post by Swami »

bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 72 by Swami]

It is not about being unreasonably skeptical but about being intellectually honest. With everyday sort of claims such as, "I saw a dog," it is reasonable to believe that a dog was responsible for that experience because dogs have an implicit empirical basis. On the other hand, it would not be reasonable to believe the claim, "I saw a fire breathing dragon," because there is no implicit empirical basis for such a creature. For those sorts of claims, it would only be responsible to remain skeptical until it has been demonstrated to be true.
I suppose this depends on the person and culture. I was born in a culture where some form of meditation is a common experience. Having mystical experiences is not unheard of and they are respected.

It is not respectable skepticism to be skeptical of things that you've never experienced and refuse to experience.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #76

Post by bluegreenearth »

Swami wrote:
I suppose this depends on the person and culture. I was born in a culture where some form of meditation is a common experience. Having mystical experiences is not unheard of and they are respected.

It is not respectable skepticism to be skeptical of things that you've never experienced and refuse to experience.
I meditate as well and have experienced what you've described but do not attribute the cause of those experiences to anything mystical or supernatural. If the cause of that experience is mystical or supernatural, I have no objective method by which to distinguish an actual mystical or supernatural cause from a natural psychological, neurological, or biological cause. I know many of those kinds of experiences have been demonstrated to be the result of natural causes even if we can't rule-out the possibility that one or more of those experiences might result from an actual mystical or supernatural cause. Therefore, the only intellectually honest position is agnosticism for unfalsifiable claims about mystical or supernatural causation.

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Post #77

Post by otseng »

Swami wrote:However, I will not continue discussion when it involves bullying or dishonest and endless debate.
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Post #78

Post by Danmark »

I as well do not dismiss mystical experience. Neither do I attribute it to some supernatural or magical explanation. Experience is experience, no matter what one attributes it to.

I have reported previously on this forum that many years ago, when alone living on a small boat in the NW US I experienced Jesus in the flesh. I had been contemplating Jesus as a Zen master, his parables like koans, that Jesus was no more or less divine than you or me. When he climbed down the companionway and smiled at me, he said, "Keep it up. You are on the right track."

I am fully aware that this may have been an experience explainable by natural means, as was Paul's claim that he saw Jesus. I do not judge. But let us at least admit the mystical experience does not necessarily convey absolute truth. It is not necessarily a 'message from God.'
Why is Paul's claim, or Joseph Smith's, more reliable than my own?

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #79

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 70 by Swami]
Here is my empirical evidence:
How many atheists have changed to theism because of a "debate"? ZERO.
How many atheists have changed to theism because of experience (the same type of experiences that Bust Nak refuses to have)? Many.
It is rather telling that you regard unsupported assertions as empirical evidence.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #80

Post by Bust Nak »

Swami wrote: I am ignoring your posts.
You are under no obligation to respond. Just know that won't stop me from criticizing your posts.
Everybody here has agreed with the view that religious and mystical experiences can convert atheists to theists. You seem to be the only one that doesn't get the lesson.
Why would you think that when I am literally the first person here to affirm that religious and mystical experiences can convert atheists to theists?
If I am the teacher, and one of the students doesn't understand the lesson, can the teacher be to blame when the student refuses to do his homework?
Yes, given the quality of the teaching. It's not even all that clear what the lesson is supposed to be, the mere fact that religious experiences can change minds?
Does it help that the same student wants "others" to do the work for him?
Sure, where the goal is the mere affirmation of a claim.
Many don't realize that no amount of evidence and debate will convince someone when it involves having to change a worldview.
That is why empirical evidence is so important to me. It is the one best way to can change minds regardless of how people feel, even with its limited success.
Here is my empirical evidence:
How many atheists have changed to theism because of a "debate"? ZERO.
How many atheists have changed to theism because of experience (the same type of experiences that Bust Nak refuses to have)? Many.
What exactly is this suppose to prove? Certainly you don't mean the mere fact that religious experience can change mind? I ask because that's not the claim that is being challenged.

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