Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

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Swami
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Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

Post #1

Post by Swami »

A few months has passed since I posted a debate challenge to atheists regarding religious experience. To date, no atheist has taken up my challenge perhaps because there is some truth to what I'm saying. I hope that this will serve as a lesson to those so called skeptics and scientists who are so quick to dismiss religious claims.

Here is one interesting evidence of a woman who dropped scientific materialism after discovering the true nature of consciousness:
I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?
Last edited by Swami on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #51

Post by Swami »

Here is administrator perspective that supports my entire point:
otseng wrote:
marco wrote: Should we expect people to change their religious views on a forum such as this?
I don't think people should come here expecting to change anyone's views. We might be able to influence it, but we can't expect someone to completely alter their views simply because of what is posted here.

Though someone can present convincing logical arguments all day, we don't form our beliefs entirely on logic. This goes for Christians as well as non-Christians. We have life experiences that impact us, whether for good or bad. Our relationships affect what we believe.
Skeptics,
If you are not convinced by argumentation, then consider that "debate" itself is the problem. It is limited. Knowing this, and still choosing to not do the field research that I've been suggesting .. this act shows nothing but willful ignorance. This type of person does not want to be convinced. Linda Johnsen and Dr. Eben Alexander (both former atheists) did not arrive at their positions through debate. This point and the moderator clarification that I copied above is more than enough validation.

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Post #52

Post by wiploc »

Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism
It is also true that experience with logic can convert theists to atheism.

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Post #53

Post by Swami »

wiploc wrote:
Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism
It is also true that experience with logic can convert theists to atheism.
I would not dispute this, however this tends to happen to theists who have not experienced. All they have is faith. But when you have experience then you have evidence. Although atheists have reason but they don't have enough evidence. They are left with incomplete answers from science and they lack the mystical experience to show them the fullest expression of consciousness.

Logic is more valid than faith but it is not more valid than experience. Logic and experience (evidence) can go together.

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Post #54

Post by Divine Insight »

Swami wrote:
wiploc wrote:
Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism
It is also true that experience with logic can convert theists to atheism.
I would not dispute this, however this tends to happen to theists who have not experienced. All they have is faith. But when you have experience then you have evidence. Although atheists have reason but they don't have enough evidence. They are left with incomplete answers from science and they lack the mystical experience to show them the fullest expression of consciousness.

Logic is more valid than faith but it is not more valid than experience. Logic and experience (evidence) can go together.
But you are attempting to apply logic to your experience.

"I felt like I was one with the universe, THEREFORE there must be a God."

Not only is this "logical" type of thinking, but it's also extremely poor logical thinking where you are jumping to non-sequitur conclusions.

It's actually illogical thinking.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]

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Post #55

Post by Divine Insight »

Swami wrote: Logic is more valid than faith but it is not more valid than experience. Logic and experience (evidence) can go together.
Having a sensation that you are one with the universe is NOT evidence of a God.
[center]Image
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[/center]

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Post #56

Post by Swami »

Divine Insight wrote: But you are attempting to apply logic to your experience.

"I felt like I was one with the universe, THEREFORE there must be a God."

Not only is this "logical" type of thinking, but it's also extremely poor logical thinking where you are jumping to non-sequitur conclusions.

It's actually illogical thinking.
Just in case you have not noticed, the debate between you and I is already over. I conceded that nothing that I argue will convince you. Even the site administrators agree that debate rarely convinces anyone so I will not waste my time with endless debate that gets nowhere.

To all skeptics who have participated so far,

If I make any other comments, it is only to address the audience so that they can see my point and experience for themselves. Do you agree that we should let the audience experience for themselves rather than trying to get them to go by your view of the experience?
Last edited by Swami on Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #57

Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote:
Do you agree that we should let the audience experience for themselves rather than going trying to get them to go by what you say?

We should let the audience decide for themselves rather than going by what you say.

Once again we see that your argumentation, weak as it is, relies on your unverified belief that your opinion, unsupported that it is, outweighs the opinion of others.


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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #58

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to Swami]

Why should any atheist believe that the Universe is god and god is the universe? This belief does not solve any of the problems with atheist theory of origins. If you are proposing some sort of Universia to put it in Isaac Asimov's "Foundation Series" terms, this belief does not solve any of the problems associated with the problem of what existed before the universe to produce in your case the Universia that we see. Or maybe there is a Multiversia, but again this belief is plagued by proof of a multiversia out there.

This belief really proposes nothing new. This belief does reinforce the Christian idea that there had to be an intelligence behind creation. But it really has no answer to the origin of the universe.

Someone can believe that they are talking to the universe all they want but simply believing that the universe is talking to them does not make it true. Especially when universia stops when the universe does not exist. So then the question becomes who created universia.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #59

Post by Bust Nak »

Swami wrote: What scientists have documented are the baby steps that lead you into your full potential. For instance, where meditation has been documented to increase awareness when it comes to being more aware of unconscious mental activity, the full potential is to increase your awareness to where you can be aware of the entire universe.
That doesn't mean anything until there is a step by step guild that produce results on demand.
I brought this up because it seems you gave up after trying once or twice. You make it sound like meditation did nothing for you. If you've experienced the baby steps, then why stop there?
Because it doesn't do anything for me other than get me nice and relaxed.
Here are 4 stages you need to know to reach some of the unitive experiences I refer to...
Knowing what to look out for doesn't help. I need the methods for repeatability.
I will not continue debate with anyone who has not shown any willingness to learn and experience these things for themselves. The entire lesson behind this discussion is that the experience will expose the error of materialism and this will convince you to leave atheism.
Not a good start. How are you going to achieve any of that if you aren't able to produce a repeatable experiment? More to the point, how would you imagine a repeatable experiment is going to falsify materialism?
Do you agree that we should let the audience experience for themselves rather than trying to get them to go by your view of the experience?
I'd rather they go by empirical evidence myself, but that's just too much for ask for with some thesis.
It is limited. Knowing this, and still choosing to not do the field research that I've been suggesting .. this act shows nothing but willful ignorance.
That's where science comes in. I don't need to do a single scientific experiment myself, others can put the effort in for me, produce empirical results and convince me with zero effort on my part. This isn't willful ignorance when you have no experiment results to show for. I have chosen not to do any field research on cosmology, yet cosmologists have convinced me just fine. Guess what the difference is?

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #60

Post by Swami »

EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to Swami]

Why should any atheist believe that the Universe is god and god is the universe? This belief does not solve any of the problems with atheist theory of origins.
I never ask people to simply believe but rather to experience. The origins of the Universe is not a real problem. I say this because discovering the origins of "matter" will not explain why anything exists. Western scientists have the wrong focus. If you want to know why anything exists, then everything can be traced or reduced back to consciousness.

You and your scientists do not realize that matter does not exist independently of consciousness. Contemplate on the following,
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
Max Planck (father of quantum theory)

I encourage you to also widen your knowledge base. If evidence is evidence, then consider that there is a wealth of knowledge and evidence from the Eastern worldview. Don't trouble yourself with how the evidence is obtained (e.g. first-person vs. third person methods), but rather focus on if it is true.
EarthScienceguy wrote: This belief really proposes nothing new. This belief does reinforce the Christian idea that there had to be an intelligence behind creation. But it really has no answer to the origin of the universe.
Again, I am not a person of "faith" so I don't expect anyone else to simply "believe". When I offered you evidence on another discussion, you painted it as being something from demons. I believe that everyone wants truth, but they don't realize how their ignorance and fear keeps them from it.

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