Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

[Swami]

A few months has passed since I posted a debate challenge to atheists regarding religious experience. To date, no atheist has taken up my challenge perhaps because there is some truth to what I'm saying. I hope that this will serve as a lesson to those so called skeptics and scientists who are so quick to dismiss religious claims.

Here is one interesting evidence of a woman who dropped scientific materialism after discovering the true nature of consciousness:

I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.

https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]

The claim that mystic experience can convert atheists to theism isn't contraversal. What lesson are we skeptics and scientists supposed to learn from this?

[Divine Insight]

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?

Absolutely. However, let's first recognize what these terms mean:

Mystical - Mystery, and experience of event that is not understood. An unexplained event or concept.

So a "mystical"' experience only means that a person experience something they don't understand. Period. That's all it means.

Religious Experience - An experience that a person associates with a religion.

I've actually had the exact type of experience in the example you posted about the lady. That experience did not cause me to jump to absurd conclusions that are not implied or indicated by the experience.

So in answer to your question:

/viewtopic.php?p=977709#977709]Swami[/url]"]
To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?[/quote]

Absolutely. If a person is willing to jump to absurd conclusions without having any credible reason for doing so, then yes, that can cause them to do absurd things like jumping to the conclusion that an unexplained feeling they had is evidence for the existence of Zeus or whatever.

The fact is Swami, you have no evidence for the conclusions you jump to. The conclusion you jump to are non sequitur, they simply don't follow as sound conclusions to jump to based on the events you are describing.

So your entire debate argument is based on nothing more than people who have jumped to non sequitur conclusions about things they have absolutely no understanding of.

And you're trying to sell their eagerness to jump to unwarranted conclusions as though this represents some sort of evidence for the credibility of the unwarranted conclusions that they jump to. But it doesn't.

So all you keep doing is displaying a profound lack of understanding of logic and what it actually takes to reach a rational conclusion based on information that you obviously do not understand. Even you call it "mystical" that means that it's mysterious. (i.e. unexplained and not understood).

Therefore if you are jumping to religious conclusions based on events that are not well understood your conclusions have no merit.

[Divine Insight]

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

The problem is that there is nothing about that experience that implies the conclusions you are jumping to.

[Swami]

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]

The claim that mystic experience can convert atheists to theism isn't contraversal. What lesson are we skeptics and scientists supposed to learn from this?

Scientists and skeptics always claim that they need evidence to be convinced. The lesson here is that the experiences that I bring up is more than enough evidence to convince the atheists.

If atheists already agree with what I'm saying, which is shown when no one accepts my debate challenge, then why are they not willing to put the lesson here into practice? The reason can't be that the experiences never happen to them because I have presented reliable methods for bringing on the experiences instead of having to wait for them.

So what is it the reason? Pride or ego? Are they afraid? Or not ready for it or don't want the truth at all? I let the audience decide.

[Swami]

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

The problem is that there is nothing about that experience that implies the conclusions you are jumping to.

Divine Insight,

There are 3 options for the experience of awareness. You don't experience it at all. You experience it from an individual standpoint (what we experience now, tied to one place or thing or perspective). Or you experience it as part of everything.

Linda Johnsen spent little time drawing "conclusions" but instead she recounted her experience that she did not feel tied to any one thing. She was part of everything. This can actually be scary to some people, the feeling that not only you are separate from your body, but also that you have no fixed point - you lose your sense of self.

If this does not convince you of the existence of a universal consciousness, which is simply a consciousness that transcends an individual self, then I would suggest that you have the experience again. If I remember correctly, you are not even an atheist so you are an example of my view. Reevaluate yourself, and ask why you feel an affinity to Buddhist philosophy.

[Tcg]

Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?

The experience of Jesus on toast can convince some of theism:



Why should we doubt that other experiences can do the same?


Tcg

[Willum]

Torture, Traumatic experience, Drugs/Euphoria and so on, all can displace reason for emotion.

Sad but true.

[SallyF]

Please allow me to apply the standard avoidance ploy found in this forum.

Define what you mean by "religious experience".

I cannot POSSIBLY participate in this discussion without your definition of "religious experience" …

… which I shall dispute and seek clarification of and take off on other tangents until I finally leave the discussion with actually giving you a direct answer, because you are trying to give me evidence that contradicts my most deeply treasured and unquestioned beliefs, which MUST be true because I believe them.

Seriously though, there is WIDE discussion on what actually constitutes a religious experience:



From the same source:



So, one woman's mystical experience can be another woman's psychotic episode.

None of which comes anywhere near demonstrating that In the Beginning, Yahweh/Brahma/Zeus/Allah/Jesus/Whoever, created the Heaven and the Earth.

Which is what we need to determine before we can take another step down the rabbit hole of religion.

However, no True Atheist would ever get their sporran in a spin over a religious experience/psychotic episode and convert to anyone's theo.

[Bust Nak]

If atheists already agree with what I'm saying, which is shown when no one accepts my debate challenge, then why are they not willing to put the lesson here into practice?

Not sure what you mean here. What exactly are we not putting into practice? From what you wrote, presumably you think demanding empirical evidence is somehow an indication that we are missing something. What is that something? That we don't think mystic experience can be convincing to those experiencing them? We certainly don't think that.