Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

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Swami
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Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism

Post #1

Post by Swami »

A few months has passed since I posted a debate challenge to atheists regarding religious experience. To date, no atheist has taken up my challenge perhaps because there is some truth to what I'm saying. I hope that this will serve as a lesson to those so called skeptics and scientists who are so quick to dismiss religious claims.

Here is one interesting evidence of a woman who dropped scientific materialism after discovering the true nature of consciousness:
I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness.

It wasn’t “as if� I was the universe. I really “was� the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed. So did my naive belief that heaven—the most joyful place I’d heard of before that moment—was a physical site with streets paved in gold. I suddenly understood that the entire universe is held within an all-pervading, blissful awareness. It’s useless for you to argue that I must have been hallucinating or having some kind of epileptic fit. The experience was real. In fact, it was far more vivid than everyday reality and it set me on a lifelong quest to understand exactly what had happened and how I could make it happen again.

The flash of “cosmic consciousness� I experienced when I was 14 happens more seldom than the first two states of mystical consciousness just described, but bring up the subject in a large group and you’ll almost certainly find at least one person who’s had the experience. In this state the boundary between “self� and “other� dissolves and your individual consciousness merges with the living reality of everything around you, animate and inanimate. There’s a profound sense of coming home, of returning to a unity you suddenly “knew all along� was there, as if you’ve just awakened from a dream.
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

This experience is similar to many experiences that led me believe that there exist a consciousness that not only transcends body, but also, space, time, and yes, even the self.

To discussion:
Can mystical or religious experience convert someone to theism?
Last edited by Swami on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #81

Post by Danmark »

Swami wrote:
It is not respectable skepticism to be skeptical of things that you've never experienced and refuse to experience.
Like astrology?
Belief in Leprechauns?
The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (MHPBP)?
Like flat Earth theory?

It is respectable to be skeptical of nonsense or anything unproved.
I am more than skeptical of your absurd claim.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #82

Post by Danmark »

Swami wrote:
bluegreenearth wrote: [Replying to post 70 by Swami]

People can agree that experiences, which some label as being mystical or supernatural, have motivated some people who identified as gnostic atheists to become at least agnostic atheists if not gnostic theists. This observation in no way demonstrates that the causes of those experiences were actually mystical or supernatural. As such, there is no objective justification for labeling those experiences as being mystical or supernatural. Therefore, the statement, "Mystic experience can convert atheists to theism," is misleading in that it smuggles in the assumption that the experience was actually mystical or supernatural. So, while it is true that some atheists convert to theism as a result of some experience they label as being mystical or supernatural, this truth does not validate the objective existence of the mystical or the supernatural.
What you are explaining is what I call unreasonable skepticism. Do you need a scientists with you at every moment of your life to confirm that you're not hallucinating your current experience?

If you have no history of mental or neurological illness, no drug consumption, and you are in the waking state (not asleep), then why question the reality of the experience? If none of the factors I mentioned are present, then the experience should be taken seriously. I have no reason to question the experience anymore than I would question the experience of typing this message to you.

If people want more validation on top of the experience that they already have then I encourage everyone to refer to some of my other topics. All of the topics are evidence for my worldview. I have also discussed how meditation can be used to replicate and test these experiences.
Have you ever had a dream?
If so, did you think it was real at any time during the dream?
Do you now believe it was real?

You make many errors here, among them are your qualifications about not being asleep, or not having a mental illness.

The person having the experience may in fact be asleep or having a mental illness or temporary shock, fugue state and not know it. The human mind and unconscious are much more complicated than you appear to realize.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #83

Post by Swami »

brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 70 by Swami]
Here is my empirical evidence:
How many atheists have changed to theism because of a "debate"? ZERO.
How many atheists have changed to theism because of experience (the same type of experiences that Bust Nak refuses to have)? Many.
It is rather telling that you regard unsupported assertions as empirical evidence.
I presented the evidence that supports my viewpoint. Not only do I accept that mystical experience can convert atheists to theism, but I also accept that the experience is genuine.

If you are not satisfied then I recommend another debate format. There is a lot of distraction here. I suggest debating in a one-on-one format so that I can focus on your objection. If the skeptics believe they have "strong" arguments to disprove my view then they should be more than willing to accept my suggestion. I extend this offer to all skeptics.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #84

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 82 by Swami]
I presented the evidence that supports my viewpoint.
No, you did not. You simply made claims and provided nothing to back up the validity of those claims. You also need to realise that you have the burden of proof, not those who remain unconvinced by your claims.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #85

Post by Danmark »

Swami wrote: If atheists already agree with what I'm saying,
We do not.
...which is shown when no one accepts my debate challenge,
Are you kidding? Your debate 'challenge' is not challenging and has been repeatedly refuted
... then why are they not willing to put the lesson here into practice?
Many here have meditated. Just because you want people to do something your way does not determine your way is either worthwhile, safe, reasonable, or worth anyone's time. You might as well say we should eat 10,000 calories a day and meditate it away and if we don't try it, we have conceded your suggestion is reasonable.

Neither your logic, nor your claims appear to have any validity, and claiming they do is neither evidence nor argument.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #86

Post by Danmark »

Swami wrote: I presented the evidence that supports my viewpoint. Not only do I accept that mystical experience can convert atheists to theism....
It hasn't convinced any atheist here, nor as far as I can see, anywhere. Meditation is a personal, psychological experience that in no way necessitates any belief in any god or supernatural mumbo jumbo. From the beginning of your unsupported claims, you have acted as if you have some kind of authority when it comes to meditation. It is apparent you have none, since you seem convinced something supernatural is involved. If you have evidence of such, provide it please.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #87

Post by marco »

Swami wrote:
If the skeptics believe they have "strong" arguments to disprove my view then they should be more than willing to accept my suggestion. I extend this offer to all skeptics.

There is nothing to disprove about your view: it is a singular observation that one's opinions are subject to change. Your mystical experience is simply the interpretation of some odd event, possibly heavily linked with coincidence and/ or illness. If one fears death and makes some sort of emotional appeal to the air, and then recovers, is it unusual to attach divine significance to one's recovery?

We can give credit to our way of thinking to powers beyond ourselves. I have a friend who does just that, and for him it is the motivating mechanism of his life. In the end all depends on interpretation, not the presence of angels, demons, spiriual forces or a Holy Ghost.

Having said this I am not unaware of what might be termed "mystical experiences" in my own journey. It would be wonderful if I could have the same certainty about extra-worldly things as I do about mathematical theorems. Alas, all is vanity. The Bible, perhaps, is a destroyer of the poetic beauty of inner peace, claiming as it does that some nomadic person called Yahweh gives and takes away and writes messages on stone to illustrate his primitive origins.

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Re: Evidence 1: Mystic experience can convert atheists to th

Post #88

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 86 by marco]

Thanks Marco. I have similar thoughts about the Bible and religion. The Bible has both wisdom folly. It reflects mankind, because men wrote it. It is said of chess that a flea can drink from it and an elephant can bathe in it. The problem comes from making it an idol, from imbuing it with some totem like supernatural power or attributing it to a god.

Atheists can err in calling it evil or in despising it. Believers err in deifying it or its source. At the heart of the issue is the failure to recognize the power of our own unconscious mind. Our own minds are greater than we realize, so we attribute those thoughts that come to some mystic or religious reality. This cripples us, hides from us the truth. The only reliable guide is to seek truth first; to quit trying to fit reality into some preconceived formula or belief system.

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Apologies for entering the discussion late...

Post #89

Post by Gracchus »

... but I will not review all the posts in this thread.

Still, I will agree that the "mystical" experience is a real phenomenon, and does present an actual perception of reality to those that can understand it; but like the "Blind Men and the Elephant", what the unprepared mind carries away is a metaphor, a biased interpretation. The "oneness" is real, as we are not separate "things" but vortices of probability in quantum spacetime. I (and you) are tens of trillions of cells, and hundreds of trillions of neural synapses, complex, dynamic systems of temporarily self-catalyzing chemical feedbacks. Each of us is an awareness of the self that is an inseparable part of the universal reality. That is what Alan Watts called the "Taboo Against Knowing What You Are", and "God" is a cluster of neurons in the brain.

And that is why religious folks always know what "God" wants: because it is always what they want, and nevertheless when faced with their own cognitive dissonances, logical paradoxes, contradictions, and ignorance, they plead that God is suddenly "mysterious". Omniscience and omnipotence, justice, immortality, and a benevolent universe are just gullibly self-deceiving projections of our own fears and wishes on a fantasy.

The reality is much more wonderous: We are temporary, dynamic, self-aware clouds of mostly empty space dusted with clouds of star-stuff.

:study:

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Apologies for entering the discussion late...

Post #90

Post by Gracchus »

... but I will not review all the posts in this thread.

Still, I will agree that the "mystical" experience is a real phenomenon, and does present an actual perception of reality to those that can understand it; but like the "Blind Men and the Elephant", what the unprepared mind carries away is a metaphor, a biased interpretation. The "oneness" is real, as we are not separate "things" but vortices of probability in quantum spacetime. I (and you) are tens of trillions of cells, and hundreds of trillions of neural synapses, complex, dynamic systems of temporarily self-catalyzing chemical feedbacks. Each of us is an awareness of the self that is an inseparable part of the universal reality. That is what Alan Watts called the "Taboo Against Knowing What You Are", and "God" is a cluster of neurons in the brain.

And that is why religious folks always know what "God" wants: because it is always what they want, and nevertheless when faced with their own cognitive dissonances, logical paradoxes, contradictions, and ignorance, they plead that God is suddenly "mysterious". Omniscience and omnipotence, justice, immortality, and a benevolent universe are just gullibly self-deceiving projections of our own fears and wishes on a fantasy.

The reality is much more wonderous: We are temporary, dynamic, self-aware clouds of mostly empty space dusted with clouds of star-stuff.

:study:

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