On natural phenomena

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Diagoras
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On natural phenomena

Post #1

Post by Diagoras »

Inspired by this quote in the ‘Questions about the earth’ topic, posted in the Science and Religion forum by brunumb:
No phenomena previously attributed to a god has been resolved in favour of a god rather than natural phenomena.
I’m interested in debating this, as I consider the claim as it stands to be truthful. In support of the claim, however, I would like to stress the significance of the word ‘resolved’ as used above. Used as a verb, it is usually defined as ‘to come to a determination; to make up one's mind’, but I think it makes the statement clearer if ‘resolved’ is taken as meaning ‘to establish the truth’ (i.e. confirm, settle, prove).

Therefore, the scope of this debate topic must necessarily exclude unresolved natural phenomena, i.e. ‘things for which there is currently no single, accepted scientific explanation’. An obvious example would be the beginning of the universe: something which science would accept as being currently ‘unresolved’ (although not necessarily unresolvable in the future). On the other hand, the theory of plate tectonics is a ‘single, accepted scientific explanation’ of why we see similar fossil strata on separate coastlines, and find seashells on mountain tops.


So, rewritten slightly, the question for debate is:

“No observed natural phenomena previously attributed to a god has been proven to be explained in favour of a god rather than by natural phenomena.�

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Post #51

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to post 49 by EarthScienceguy]

How does an earlier source keep me ‘abreast’ of something better than a later one?

Your linked article was posted on 30 January 2015.

The article I linked to was posted on the PNAS website on 14 May 2019.

If I want the latest news, I don’t go back over four years for it.

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Post #52

Post by Diagoras »

We can discuss gravitational waves in another thread if you like, but it doesn’t address the OP. As I said before, putting up examples of unresolved scientific questions accomplishes nothing in this thread

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Post #53

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 50 by Diagoras]

Nothing has changed. From your article

Answers could be hiding in the 3 years of data from BICEP3 that await analysis. That dataset, or the powerful new instruments to come, may finally find B-modes from the early universe, verifying inflation. And if they see nothing, that would be just as important. “If 10 years from now, we have not yet detected these B modes, then we have to go back to our models of inflation and seriously rethink what we have been telling people about how inflation works,� says Kamionkowski. “If we don’t see primordial gravitational waves, then in spite of the other successes that the models have had, there is something fundamentally wrong. Somehow nature has been misleading us.�

There is still no evidence of inflation.

The best answer to the creation of the universe is God.

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Post #54

Post by Diagoras »

EarthScienceguy wrote:There is still no evidence of inflation.
There’s plenty of evidence. Science has made a number of predictions about the universe based on an ‘inflation model’ that have been empirically verified by observation in five out of six important cases:

1. The Universe should be perfectly flat. (We observe this).
2. There should be an almost scale-invariant spectrum of fluctuations. If quantum physics is real, then the Universe should have experienced quantum fluctuations even during inflation. These fluctuations should be stretched, exponentially, across the Universe. When inflation ends, these fluctuations should get turned into matter and radiation, giving rise to overdense and underdense regions that grow into stars and galaxies, or great cosmic voids. For perfect scale invariance, a parameter we call n_s would equal 1 exactly; n_s is observed to be 0.96.
3. There should be fluctuations on scales larger than light could have traveled since the Big Bang. This is another consequence of inflation, but there's no way to get a coherent set of fluctuations on large scales like this without something stretching them across cosmic distances. The fact that we see these fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background and in the large-scale structure of the Universe — and didn't know about them in the early 1980s — further validates inflation.
4. These quantum fluctuations, which translate into density fluctuations, should be adiabatic. Fluctuations could have come in different types: adiabatic, isocurvature, or a mixture of the two. Inflation predicted that these fluctuations should have been 100% adiabatic, which should leave unique signatures in both the cosmic microwave background and the Universe's large-scale structure. Observations bear out that yes, in fact, the fluctuations were adiabatic: of constant entropy everywhere.
5. There should be an upper limit, smaller than the Planck scale, to the temperature of the Universe in the distant past. This is also a signature that shows up in the cosmic microwave background: how high a temperature the Universe reached at its hottest. Remember, if there were no inflation, the Universe should have gone up to arbitrarily high temperatures at early times, approaching a singularity. But with inflation, there's a maximum temperature that must be at energies lower than the Planck scale (~1019 GeV). What we see, from our observations, is that the Universe achieved temperatures no higher than about 0.1% of that (~1016 GeV) at any point, further confirming inflation.
6. And finally, there should be a set of primordial gravitational waves, with a particular spectrum. Just as we had an almost perfectly scale-invariant spectrum of density fluctuations, inflation predicts a spectrum of tensor fluctuations in General Relativity, which translate into gravitational waves. The magnitude of these fluctuations are model-dependent on inflation, but the spectrum has a set of unique predictions. This sixth prediction is the only one that has not been verified observationally.
right now there is no alternative that has displayed the same predictive power that the inflationary paradigm brings.
Source for all the above: https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... af79e18e50

From the PNAS website (with my bolding):
Many of the predictions of inflation fit our observations of the universe, but a key prediction remains unverified. Inflation should have roiled spacetime, generating gravitational waves that would have rippled through the cosmos ever since. Evidence of these waves would be concrete proof of inflation and provide clues to how it happened.
Gravitational waves from merging black holes and neutron stars have already been detected by the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO). But the waves from inflation would be much weaker and have much longer wavelengths, putting them outside LIGO’s range of sensitivity.
Instead, our window for seeing signatures of primordial gravitational waves is the cosmic microwave background (CMB): the universe’s first light emitted when the cosmos was about 380,000 years old. If there were ripples in spacetime caused by inflation, they would have affected the photons of the CMB, and the signature of that interaction would be discernible today.
BICEP2 was looking for this signature. A photon has a property called polarization, the orientation of its electric field, and the average polarization of CMB photons at each point on the sky can be shown as a line matching that orientation. If primordial gravitational waves polarized the photons, these lines today should have a characteristic swirl known as the B-mode polarization signal. This is what BICEP2 saw. Unfortunately, dust in our galaxy can create a similar pattern.
Do you think science is a ‘one-time deal’? The fact that the first experiment wasn’t successful doesn’t disprove the theory. And guess what? If BICEP3 successfully detects inflationary gravitational waves, that doesn’t mean the science stops and inflation is ‘true’. We just acknowledge that our confidence in inflation got that bit higher, make further predictions and test those - and so on.

Your approach appears to be the very opposite: as soon as you get one negative result, you stop looking and conclude that the science is wrong.

That’s just antithetical to proper science.

You then said:
The best answer to the creation of the universe is God.
Well, I can use exactly the same methodology as you did to state “There is still no evidence of God�.

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Post #55

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 45 by EarthScienceguy]
I like Dr. Humphrey's time light dilation theory.


This is more utter nonsense from Humphreys. For those not familiar with this pure handwaving "theory", it is here:

https://creation.com/new-time-dilation- ... -cosmology

https://creation.com/images/journal_of_ ... ionist.pdf

(the PDF is reference 1 of the first article, which is also full of references to biblical passages ... a sample is at the bottom of this post to illustrate how unscientific this all is).

There is a claim that Humphreys has found a new solution to Einstein's field equations that, of course, justify his attempts to work backwards from a conclusion (ie. a young earth) to get the answer he wants. This nonsense is only published in creation journals, for obvious reasons, but it is typical of what people of his ilk do to try and claim that young earth creationism is compatible with modern science. Here Humphreys' invents something he calls "achronicity", or "timelessness":

His goal is to show that time can stop over vast regions of space, which he asserts supports his "creation cosmology" as it then allows light from distant stars more than 6000 light years away to get to Earth during the 6000 year old universe he supports because it travelled over these regions of "timelessness", where somehow time stopped but the light from the stars just kept on moving and traversed these vast regions of space in zero time. He ends with this solid, confidence-building statement:

"The speculative scenario in the previous two sections shows how useful achronicity could be in creation cosmology. Other scenarios are easily possible, and I hope that other creationists making alternative cosmologies will find timelessness a good tool."

Really convincing huh? I expect it would be very convenient for "creation cosmology" if you can simply stop time for arbitrary periods over arbitrary volumes of space to support any biblical story you like. This isn't a "time light dilation theory", it is Humphreys yet again taking biblical passages and interpreting them in whatever way is needed to support whatever point he is trying to make (he seems fascinated with water in all of these "theories" ... in this case claiming the entire universe is surrounded by the "waters above" as if it were contained in a water gigantic bubble). Also note that in the web article he conveniently made the assumption that everything was stationary. If this paper ever hit a legitimate science journal it wouldn't even be sent out for review.
How did heat energy from one side of the universe reach the other side of the universe in 13.5 billion years when the universe is 26 billion light years across.


Hint ... the universe has been expanding the entire time. Why would you think the universe was anywhere near 26 billion light years across 13.5 billion years ago?
The best answer to the creation of the universe is God.


Except that no gods have ever been demonstrated to exist to do the creating. You can replace the word "God" with virtually anything you like and it would have just as much validity as the statement above. Until you can demonstrate that a god of any type actually exists, attributing anything to that entity is pure speculation.

Below is a sample of text from the PDF above showing how Humphreys' creates his assumptions ... I removed the reference superscripts. This isn't science, and it amazes me that anyone believes a word this guy says.

"To make an alternative cosmology, we could suppose that a large volume of empty space surrounds the matter, in which case the matter would have a centre of mass. The Bible supports such a view. On that basis I suggested a centre-of-mass ‘white-hole’ cosmology in 1994. In 2003 two non-creationist mathematicians proposed a similar one in the secular literature, though their white hole had no recent time dilation. I know of two other creationist cosmologies with a centre of mass.

The matter in a centre-of-mass cosmos would be deep within a ‘well’ of gravitational potential Φ. Many distributions of matter would give potentials resulting in similar conclusions as those of this article. Figure 1 shows one example. This new model is different than the one in my book because it accounts for the ‘waters above the heavens’ mentioned in Psalm 148:4 and other Scriptures. As I implied in the book (but did not make clear), the mass of the waters above the heavens could be much greater than the mass of all the stars of the cosmos. In that case, the potential within the shell of waters would be nearly flat compared to the shape of the potential outside the waters."
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Post #56

Post by EarthScienceguy »

Just which inflationary model are you referring to? There are literally hundreds of inflationary models with each one making different predictions.

This is one of the criticisms that those inside the physics community have. There are those in the physics community that do not even consider inflation a theory because it cannot be falsified.

Inflation does not have any answer to the creation of the universe Alan Guth even mentions this in his original inflation paper. Inflation theory is simply a band aid for issues the big bang theory could not answer.

There has never been a noble prize awarded to inflationary theory.

To make predictions with inflation one cannot just say “there once was exponential expansion and it ended somehow.� No, to be able to calculate something, one needs a mathematical model. The current models for inflation work by introducing a new field — the “inflaton� — and give this field a potential energy. The potential energy depends on various parameters. And these parameters can then be related to observations.

The scientific approach to the situation would be to choose a model, determine the parameters that best fit observations, and then revise the model as necessary — i.e., as new data comes in. But that’s not what cosmologists presently do. Instead, they have produced so many variants of models that they can now “predict� pretty much anything that might be measured in the foreseeable future.


This is not the way science works.

Inflation is simply let's change the math so that it fits with the observations. Kind of like those physics students that look at the answer and then try to make their math fit the answer they already you.

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Post #57

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 54 by DrNoGods]
There is a claim that Humphreys has found a new solution to Einstein's field equations that, of course, justify his attempts to work backwards from a conclusion (ie. a young earth) to get the answer he wants. This nonsense is only published in creation journals, for obvious reasons, but it is typical of what people of his ilk do to try and claim that young earth creationism is compatible with modern science. Here Humphreys' invents something he calls "achronicity", or "timelessness":
He publishes how calculated everything so show it in the math if you have a problem with the math.

His goal is to show that time can stop over vast regions of space, which he asserts supports his "creation cosmology" as it then allows light from distant stars more than 6000 light years away to get to Earth during the 6000 year old universe he supports because it travelled over these regions of "timelessness", where somehow time stopped but the light from the stars just kept on moving and traversed these vast regions of space in zero time. He ends with this solid, confidence-building statement:

"The speculative scenario in the previous two sections shows how useful achronicity could be in creation cosmology. Other scenarios are easily possible, and I hope that other creationists making alternative cosmologies will find timelessness a good tool."
Time dilation is not unobserved or outside of any scientific principles that all physicist are familiar with. Unlike inflation.
Really convincing huh? I expect it would be very convenient for "creation cosmology" if you can simply stop time for arbitrary periods over arbitrary volumes of space to support any biblical story you like. This isn't a "time light dilation theory", it is Humphreys yet again taking biblical passages and interpreting them in whatever way is needed to support whatever point he is trying to make (he seems fascinated with water in all of these "theories" ... in this case claiming the entire universe is surrounded by the "waters above" as if it were contained in a water gigantic bubble). Also note that in the web article he conveniently made the assumption that everything was stationary. If this paper ever hit a legitimate science journal it wouldn't even be sent out for review.
Creation publications have the added proof of explaining how in this case creation theory matches the Biblical record. What criticism are you trying to establish?

Are you trying to say that mass does not cause time to dilate? Or that mass would not cause space to be almost perfectly flat like what is observed?

Just saying that someone else would criticize because can't is essentially saying nothing except "I do not want it to be correct but I cannot express how it is wrong using current theory."


Hint ... the universe has been expanding the entire time. Why would you think the universe was anywhere near 26 billion light years across 13.5 billion years ago?
This is not a solution. In fact this is one of the problems with the big bang theory this is one of the problems that inflation theory tries to answer. An explosion does not disperse energy homogeneously. Inflation theory makes the argument that the Big Bang was actually two bang and not one.
Except that no gods have ever been demonstrated to exist to do the creating. You can replace the word "God" with virtually anything you like and it would have just as much validity as the statement above. Until you can demonstrate that a god of any type actually exists, attributing anything to that entity is pure speculation.
1st. There is no answer for where the energy for the universe came from and it does not look like there will be an answer any time soon.

Below is a sample of text from the PDF above showing how Humphreys' creates his assumptions ... I removed the reference superscripts. This isn't science, and it amazes me that anyone believes a word this guy says.

Humphreys assumptions. Apart from the section highlighted in green these are true of all creation theories.

1. God created space and the laws of physics that govern this universe.
2. God created a huge ball of water with homogeneous spin of the protons.
3. God stretched space and the separated the waters
4. God made the earth out of the water He created
5. God made life

These have been the assumptions of creation theory for the last 4000 years.

Science has yet to disprove any of them.

You an say you do not like them.

You can say you do not believe them.

But what you cannot do is disprove them.

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Post #58

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Humphreys assumptions. Apart from the section highlighted in green these are true of all creation theories.

1. God created space and the laws of physics that govern this universe.
2. God created a huge ball of water with homogeneous spin of the protons.
3. God stretched space and the separated the waters
4. God made the earth out of the water He created
5. God made life

These have been the assumptions of creation theory for the last 4000 years.

Science has yet to disprove any of them.

You an say you do not like them.

You can say you do not believe them.

But what you cannot do is disprove them.
Assumptions that are being made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Post #59

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to post 55 by EarthScienceguy]
Just which inflationary model are you referring to? There are literally hundreds of inflationary models with each one making different predictions.
This argument has been addressed already in my linked article:

�One side goes so far as to claim that because you can contrive models that can give you almost arbitrary behavior, inflation fails to rise to the standard of a scientific theory. The other side claims that inflation makes these generic, successful predictions, and that the better we measure these parameters of the Universe, the more we constrain which models are viable, and the closer we come to understanding which one(s) best describe our physical reality.�

It’s that ‘constrain which models are viable’ part which should answer your criticism.
Inflation does not have any answer to the creation of the universe
It’s not meant to. Different problem entirely.
There has never been a noble prize awarded to inflationary theory.
Really? This is the new standard of argument to which you’re dragging this debate? Hardly worth pointing out the logical fallacy committed here, but in the new spirit of quality debate, I’ll point out that it’s spelled ‘Nobel’ (capitalised ‘N’ since it refers to Alfred Nobel).
The current models for inflation work by introducing a new field — the “inflaton�
Where did you get this from? Can you provide a cite from a published scientific source? No physical field has yet been discovered that is responsible for inflation.
Instead, they have produced so many variants of models that they can now “predict� pretty much anything that might be measured in the foreseeable future.
Already addressed, but once again, this is a totally unsupported claim.
Time dilation is not unobserved
Nice equivocation, there. Time dilation is not the same thing as time stopping entirely.
In fact this is one of the problems with the big bang theory this is one of the problems that inflation theory tries to answer. An explosion does not disperse energy homogeneously. Inflation theory makes the argument that the Big Bang was actually two bang and not one.
Your choice of the word ‘explosion’ strongly suggests to me that you do not in fact understand what the ‘Big Bang’ or cosmic inflation actually were.

Of creationist theories:
But what you cannot do is disprove them.
They are much like The Flying Spaghetti Monster in that regard.

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Post #60

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 56 by EarthScienceguy]
He publishes how calculated everything so show it in the math if you have a problem with the math.


It doesn't matter what math he presents when he can't justify his fundamental assumptions. As with his planetary magnetic field "theory" and the many exchanges on that, you misunderstand a very fundamental aspect of real science. Making up assumptions with no evidence that they are valid, then using those assumptions to arrive at some conclusion, is not how real science works. I know it is how "creation science" works, but that is just further proof that it is all nonsense.
Humphreys assumptions. Apart from the section highlighted in green these are true of all creation theories.

1. God created space and the laws of physics that govern this universe.
2. God created a huge ball of water with homogeneous spin of the protons.
3. God stretched space and the separated the waters
4. God made the earth out of the water He created
5. God made life

These have been the assumptions of creation theory for the last 4000 years.

Science has yet to disprove any of them.


Creation theories are not science theories. Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how real science works. It is not the job of science to disprove random, made up assumptions or anything inferred from those baseless assumptions. It would be a complete waste of time and contribute nothing to human knowledge. It is fine to believe in gods, devils, angels, afterlives, etc. ... just don't pretend that any of this stuff is supported by real science, or consistent with real science.

Humphreys and his type try to convince the scientifically illiterate that the biblical creation myth, and other biblical stories, are compatible with modern science in order to give "creation science" legitimacy. Referencing God and various bible verses gives them a license to create wild and baseless assumptions like those above, which are then used as the basis for outlandish "theories" that could never pass muster in the real science world.

You can't just make up assumptions or get them from a subjective interpretation of bible stories or verses. You don't seem to appreciate this fundamental point regarding how real science works, compared to how "creation science"works.
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