On natural phenomena

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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On natural phenomena

Post #1

Post by Diagoras »

Inspired by this quote in the ‘Questions about the earth’ topic, posted in the Science and Religion forum by brunumb:
No phenomena previously attributed to a god has been resolved in favour of a god rather than natural phenomena.
I’m interested in debating this, as I consider the claim as it stands to be truthful. In support of the claim, however, I would like to stress the significance of the word ‘resolved’ as used above. Used as a verb, it is usually defined as ‘to come to a determination; to make up one's mind’, but I think it makes the statement clearer if ‘resolved’ is taken as meaning ‘to establish the truth’ (i.e. confirm, settle, prove).

Therefore, the scope of this debate topic must necessarily exclude unresolved natural phenomena, i.e. ‘things for which there is currently no single, accepted scientific explanation’. An obvious example would be the beginning of the universe: something which science would accept as being currently ‘unresolved’ (although not necessarily unresolvable in the future). On the other hand, the theory of plate tectonics is a ‘single, accepted scientific explanation’ of why we see similar fossil strata on separate coastlines, and find seashells on mountain tops.


So, rewritten slightly, the question for debate is:

“No observed natural phenomena previously attributed to a god has been proven to be explained in favour of a god rather than by natural phenomena.�

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Post #61

Post by Diagoras »

From the ‘New Creationist Cosmology’ article:
Recall that Genesis 1:2 mentions water:

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (KJV)�

Notice “the deep.� Its mass was on the order of twenty times that of all the galaxies within the viewing range of the Hubble space telescope. This was probably ordinary liquid H2O and would have been in the shape of a ball a few light years in diameter.
Why was it water? Well, because the Bible says so. Just for fun, I ‘did the math’ on a heavenly ball of water. While we aren’t given a more accurate figure than ‘a few light years in diameter’, I felt that a reasonably safe minimum to choose would be three light years’ diameter. I don’t want to be accused of exaggerating the claim.

Three light years is approximately 28x10^12km (“twenty eight trillion kilometres�), so we can calculate the volume by dividing that by 2 (to get the radius), cubing it and multiplying by 4/3 pi to get 11,494x10^36 km3. Expressed in metres, that’s roughly 11.5x10^48m (“eleven and a half quindecillion metres�).

We know the density of water (0.997 kg/m3) so our ball of water weighs 11.5x10^48kg. For comparison, our sun weighs a mere 2x10^30kg, meaning our heavenly ball is a bit over five quintillion times heavier than the sun.

A quintillion is basically “a million trillion� if that makes it easier to visualise.

No? Well, let’s compare that to some truly huge things. As of a couple of years ago, the heaviest star known is thought to be R136a1, which is approximately 265 times more massive than our sun. That’s nearly double the theoretical limit that astronomers thought possible. So our ball is... well, a lot heavier than that.

How about ‘supermassive black holes’? Some of those get very heavy indeed - almost unimaginably heavy. The largest one currently identified appears to be within a quasar called TON 618 and is estimated as having a mass 66 billion times that of our sun. That’s 13.2x10^40kg, which is still about one hundred million times lighter than our heavenly ball.

Alright then, how about the Milky Way? Here’s a nice visualisation for you:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... ark-matter

Taking the ‘1.5 trillion suns’ figure, we still come up short. The Milky Way is in fact only 3x10^39kg, which makes the TON 618 black hole even more impressive in comparison.

OK, but what about:
Its mass was on the order of twenty times that of all the galaxies within the viewing range of the Hubble space telescope.
Well, I suppose I could adjust the initial ‘few light years’ figure to make the heavenly ball fit this figure. Tweaking initial conditions to end up with the ‘right’ answer is after all what Dr Humphreys seems to be good at.
As Drs. Vardiman and Humphreys demonstrate in their series of articles on cosmological issues, there is much to consider when examining the scientific data, and much which remains in the form of speculative models. ICR appreciates their contribution to the ongoing discussion.
— Lawrence Ford, Executive Editor

“much which remains in the form of speculative models� - yes, I think that covers it quite nicely.

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Post #62

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 59 by DrNoGods]
Creation theories are not science theories. Again, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how real science works. It is not the job of science to disprove random, made up assumptions or anything inferred from those baseless assumptions.
Oh, you mean like multiverses which result in Boltzmann Brains, or my personal favorite the matrix universe which people believe that we are in a computer simulation.

So what do you believe in? Maybe you believe that science will get there one day? So you put your faith in science will one day find the answer to this great mystery.

But science brought you the theories above so you get to choose when a particularly solution suits your fancy.

Einstein really threw a wrench in any origins theory because relativity describes a reality in which past, present and future all exist. The conclusion would have to be then that all of time had to be created at creation.
It would be a complete waste of time and contribute nothing to human knowledge. It is fine to believe in gods, devils, angels, afterlives, etc. ... just don't pretend that any of this stuff is supported by real science, or consistent with real science.
This is certainly not true. In fact modern science has its roots in the literal interpretation of the Bible which arose after the reformation.

Stephen Snobelen, Assistant Professor of History of Science and Technology, University of King’s College, Halifax, Canada, writes in a similar vein, and also explains the somewhat misleading term “literal interpretation�:

“Here is a final paradox. Recent work on early modern science has demonstrated a direct (and positive) relationship between the resurgence of the Hebraic, literal exegesis of the Bible in the Protestant Reformation, and the rise of the empirical method in modern science. I’m not referring to wooden literalism, but the sophisticated literal-historical hermeneutics that Martin Luther and others (including Newton) championed.�


And Prof. Snobelen explains the reason why: scientists started to study nature in the same way they studied the Bible. I.e. just as they studied what the Bible really said, rather than imposed outside philosophies and traditions upon it, they likewise studied how nature really did work, rather than accept philosophical ideas about how it should work.

“It was, in part, when this method was transferred to science, when students of nature moved on from studying nature as symbols, allegories and metaphors to observing nature directly in an inductive and empirical way, that modern science was born. In this, Newton also played a pivotal role. As strange as it may sound, science will forever be in the debt of millenarians and biblical literalists.


Prof. Harrison has researched another commonly overlooked factor in the development of science: belief in a literal Fall of a literal first man Adam. These founding modern scientists, including Francis Bacon, reasoned that the Fall not only destroyed man’s innocence, but also greatly impaired his knowledge. The first problem was remedied by the innocent Last Adam, Jesus Christ—His sacrifice enabled our sin to be imputed (credited) to Him (Isaiah 53:6), and His perfect life enabled His righteousness to be imputed to believers in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). But as for recovering what they believed to be Adam’s encyclopedic knowledge, they looked to science. Harrison explains:

“New [sic] literal readings of the creation narratives in Genesis provided 17th century thinkers with powerful motivating images for pursuing the natural sciences.

“Adam was thought to have possessed a perfect knowledge of all sciences, a knowledge lost to posterity when he fell from grace and was expelled from the Garden of Eden. The goal of 17th century scientists such as Francis Bacon and his successors in the Royal Society of London was to regain the scientific knowledge of the first man. Indeed, for these individuals, the whole scientific enterprise was an integral part of a redemptive enterprise that, along with the Christian religion, was to help restore the original race to its original perfection. The biblical account of the creation thus provided these scientists with an important source of motivation, and in an age still thoroughly committed to traditional Christianity, the new science was to gain social legitimacy on account of these religious associations.�


It is impossible to separate modern science from the beliefs of Christianity.
Humphreys and his type try to convince the scientifically illiterate that the biblical creation myth, and other biblical stories, are compatible with modern science in order to give "creation science" legitimacy. Referencing God and various bible verses gives them a license to create wild and baseless assumptions like those above, which are then used as the basis for outlandish "theories" that could never pass muster in the real science world.

You can't just make up assumptions or get them from a subjective interpretation of bible stories or verses. You don't seem to appreciate this fundamental point regarding how real science works, compared to how "creation science"works.
Modern science does.

When is the last time you saw another universe with different laws of nature and time that can run forward and backward.

When did you ever see an ever expanding vacuum bubble with positive and negative energy perfectly balanced.

When did you ever seen an alien computer?

When have you ever seen an alien?

These are all assumptions made in modern cosmology. You can keep your belief system with its assumptions. Creation assumptions are much more practical.

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Post #63

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 57 by Divine Insight]
Assumptions that are being made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You have seen a alien? Where I want to see one.
You have seen a Boltzmann brain? I want to see one of those also.
You have seen another universe? Me to.
You have seen a universe size quantum bubble? Where?

All of the above assumptions are made in modern cosmology.

Assumptions are made because they cannot be proven.

Einstein's assumptions in relativity

1. the speed of light (in a vacuum) is constant – no matter who measures it, or when, or where –

2. the laws of physics are the same for in all inertial frames of reference

Neither of these assumptions can be proven and both were controversial in 1905.

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Post #64

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 61 by EarthScienceguy]
Oh, you mean like multiverses which result in Boltzmann Brains, or my personal favorite the matrix universe which people believe that we are in a computer simulation.

So what do you believe in? Maybe you believe that science will get there one day? So you put your faith in science will one day find the answer to this great mystery.


This is your standard tactic ... change the subject completely (always to origins or other unsolved scientific problems) then rant about this instead of the topic at hand.

Humphreys makes assumptions that he does not and cannot show are valid, usually based on his interpretation of a bible verse or passage that he chooses, then develops his "theories" from those baseless assumptions. This is what I am pointing out, and it has nothing to do with Boltzmann Brains, matrix universes, or origins.
Einstein really threw a wrench in any origins theory ...


Who is talking about origin theories? Your list of "God did it" creationist assumptions are not even remotely analogous to how real science works, but you don't seem to understand that point or why Humphreys' "theories" are not science because they are based on assumptions that have no validity. Modern cosmology is not based on any religious text, or anyone's interpretation of such a text. Things like the heliocentric model of our solar system are accepted to be fact because observation has shown this to be correct. It is not open to interpretation, and it is not based on flimsy subjective assumptions or connected to any religious document. You cannot compare what Humphreys and his ilk do with their fabricated and baseless assumptions, with how modern science works.
In fact modern science has its roots in the literal interpretation of the Bible which arose after the reformation.


Modern science has its roots in observation, experimentation, analysis of data, and continued development of mathematics and the physical sciences which explain nature consistently and have predictive capability. It builds on itself over time as new observations and discoveries are made. Literal interpretation of the bible has absolutely nothing to do with it. Present day people (like Humphreys) who attempt to twist modern science to be compatible with the old myths and stories from the bible are fortunately ignored by the science community and they have no impact on science, and this is as it should be. They contribute nothing to real science.
It is impossible to separate modern science from the beliefs of Christianity.


There is no need to separate them because they are already unrelated. Christianity is a religion and science is not, and Christianity does not use or need science for its structure or messages. What makes you think they are intertwined in any way whatsoever?
When is the last time you saw another universe with different laws of nature and time that can run forward and backward.

When did you ever see an ever expanding vacuum bubble with positive and negative energy perfectly balanced.

When did you ever seen an alien computer?

When have you ever seen an alien?

These are all assumptions made in modern cosmology.


What does any of this have to do with Humphreys (or anyone like him) using completely made up assumptions to produce "theories" that you defend as valid science? His "alternate cosmology" is based on assumptions crafted entirely in his head from bible verses, that he doesn't even attempt to validate (in his mind referencing the bible cannot be challenged, nor his specific interpretation of whatever biblical passage he uses to invent his assumption). If you think this is analogous to how real science works then you clearly don't understand the process. That is my point ... the two are entirely different.
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Post #65

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to post 61 by EarthScienceguy]
Oh, you mean like multiverses which result in Boltzmann Brains, or my personal favorite the matrix universe which people believe that we are in a computer simulation.

So what do you believe in? Maybe you believe that science will get there one day? So you put your faith in science will one day find the answer to this great mystery.

But science brought you the theories above so you get to choose when a particularly solution suits your fancy.
It seems to me that the one that chooses based on ‘fancy’ is yourself. This debate is about:

No observed natural phenomena previously attributed to a god has been proven to be explained in favour of a god rather than by natural phenomena.

We’ve so far had a tangential discussion about the afterlife, which ceased once a Moderator intervened. You subsequently chimed in with examples of current scientific problems as if they were somehow relevant to ‘observed natural phenomena previously attributed to a god’. We’ve gone down the sidetracks of gravitational waves and inflation - interesting in their own way, but neither having been previously attributed to a god, not really productive to the debate.

Now you fancy something different, so you post:
Einstein really threw a wrench in any origins theory because relativity describes a reality in which past, present and future all exist. The conclusion would have to be then that all of time had to be created at creation.
I know for a fact that there exists a debate thread which is focussed solely on this very topic. You started it, in fact. As evidence for this claim, I invite you to click the link below, which will redirect your browser to that debate:

viewtopic.php?t=36220

I ask in all seriousness: Can you please attempt to stick to the topic? And would you kindly ‘keep in your lane’ and place any discussions about relativity in the thread that specifically focusses on that topic? This debate is not about Boltzmann Brains, unless you can point to a bible passage that explains how such brains are the work of God.

Your ‘scattergun’ polemic against science just demonstrates to all that read this forum that you have no real argument against the position of the OP.

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Post #66

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 57 by Divine Insight]
Assumptions that are being made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
You have seen a alien? Where I want to see one.
You have seen a Boltzmann brain? I want to see one of those also.
You have seen another universe? Me to.
You have seen a universe size quantum bubble? Where?

All of the above assumptions are made in modern cosmology.
Absolute hogwash. None of those things are assumed to be true in modern cosmology. Everything you have listed there are speculations made by various scientists. None of them are assumed to be true.

Apparently you haven't learned how to distinguish between speculation and science. Scientists are allowed to speculate. This doesn't make their speculation true, nor is their speculations assumed to be true by modern cosmology.

EarthScienceguy wrote: Assumptions are made because they cannot be proven.

Einstein's assumptions in relativity

1. the speed of light (in a vacuum) is constant – no matter who measures it, or when, or where –
This has indeed be tested and verified to be true in every case ever recorded. If you can provide a case where these things are violated, then you need to do that.
EarthScienceguy wrote: 2. the laws of physics are the same for in all inertial frames of reference
This was a postulate that turned out to be true.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Neither of these assumptions can be proven and both were controversial in 1905.
Both of these ideas have been tested to the hilt and have proven to be true since.

Yes, scientists to make postulates when introducing new theories. If the postulates can be tested they are considered to be scientific postulates. They can then be demonstrated to be true or false. These postulates turned out to be true and have since been verified.

For someone who chose EarthScienceGuy as a screen name you sure don't appear to have much understanding of how science even works. You were wrong about Relativity in your other thread. So you knowledge of science is highly questionable.
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Post #67

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 63 by DrNoGods]
This is your standard tactic ... change the subject completely (always to origins or other unsolved scientific problems) then rant about this instead of the topic at hand.

Humphreys makes assumptions that he does not and cannot show are valid, usually based on his interpretation of a bible verse or passage that he chooses, then develops his "theories" from those baseless assumptions. This is what I am pointing out, and it has nothing to do with Boltzmann Brains, matrix universes, or origins.
No, what I am pointing out is the hypocrisy in your own belief system. You claim that Humphreys "ASSUMPTIONS" are in valid. You really do not give a reason why you think they are invalid. I guess because you do not like the consequences if they are valid, who knows.

And yet the assumptions that your science god ask people to believe is off the insanity reservation.

Little or big green men with supercomputers. Black holes that project 3-D images on the interior. An infinite number of universes with which would mean an infinite number of Earth Science Guys!!! Well, maybe that one is not so bad.

But I digress, and you think belief in God is crazy. I think you need your crazy meter checked.



Quote:
Einstein really threw a wrench in any origins theory ...


Who is talking about origin theories? Your list of "God did it" creationist assumptions are not even remotely analogous to how real science works, but you don't seem to understand that point or why Humphreys' "theories" are not science because they are based on assumptions that have no validity. Modern cosmology is not based on any religious text, or anyone's interpretation of such a text. Things like the heliocentric model of our solar system are accepted to be fact because observation has shown this to be correct. It is not open to interpretation, and it is not based on flimsy subjective assumptions or connected to any religious document. You cannot compare what Humphreys and his ilk do with their fabricated and baseless assumptions, with how modern science works.
Assumptions are only baseless if they cannot produce valid theories that can make predictions.

A baseless assumption would be that we are all part of a computer generated simulation. Or that there are an infinite number of Earth Science Guys, as wonderful as that maybe. Although there would probably be an Evil Earth Science Guy that would agree with all of presupposition. Although the good Dr. NoGods might actually believe in God in that universe.

But an assumption that the fabric of space is like the canvas on a tent. And that this canvas is under acceleration. Would not be a baseless assumption. Because their could be accurate predictions made off of this assumption. Like the constant temperature of the Cosmic Background radiation. And the elimination of the need for dark matter and dark energy. Assumptions are only as good as the predictions that they can make.




Quote:
In fact modern science has its roots in the literal interpretation of the Bible which arose after the reformation.


Modern science has its roots in observation, experimentation, analysis of data, and continued development of mathematics and the physical sciences which explain nature consistently and have predictive capability. It builds on itself over time as new observations and discoveries are made. Literal interpretation of the bible has absolutely nothing to do with it. Present day people (like Humphreys) who attempt to twist modern science to be compatible with the old myths and stories from the bible are fortunately ignored by the science community and they have no impact on science, and this is as it should be. They contribute nothing to real science.

Quote:
It is impossible to separate modern science from the beliefs of Christianity.


There is no need to separate them because they are already unrelated. Christianity is a religion and science is not, and Christianity does not use or need science for its structure or messages. What makes you think they are intertwined in any way whatsoever?

Quote:
When is the last time you saw another universe with different laws of nature and time that can run forward and backward.

When did you ever see an ever expanding vacuum bubble with positive and negative energy perfectly balanced.

When did you ever seen an alien computer?

When have you ever seen an alien?

These are all assumptions made in modern cosmology.

What does any of this have to do with Humphreys (or anyone like him) using completely made up assumptions to produce "theories" that you defend as valid science? His "alternate cosmology" is based on assumptions crafted entirely in his head from bible verses, that he doesn't even attempt to validate (in his mind referencing the bible cannot be challenged, nor his specific interpretation of whatever biblical passage he uses to invent his assumption). If you think this is analogous to how real science works then you clearly don't understand the process. That is my point ... the two are entirely different.

A person could have the assumption that that the moon is made of swiss cheese, but this would not be a valid assumption because it would not make accurate predictions. My point is that there are not any assumptions in your modern cosmology that can make accurate predictions of the universe.

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Post #68

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 65 by Divine Insight]
Yes, scientists to make postulates when introducing new theories. If the postulates can be tested they are considered to be scientific postulates. They can then be demonstrated to be true or false. These postulates turned out to be true and have since been verified.
Exactly, the point I was trying to make. Relativity, is considered correct because the assumptions make accurate predictions.

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Post #69

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 65 by Divine Insight]
Yes, scientists to make postulates when introducing new theories. If the postulates can be tested they are considered to be scientific postulates. They can then be demonstrated to be true or false. These postulates turned out to be true and have since been verified.
Exactly, the point I was trying to make. Relativity, is considered correct because the assumptions make accurate predictions.
No, it's correct because the assumptions it made were correct. And this is why it's able to make accurate predictions.

Time truly does dilate with motion and gravitational fields truly do bend light rays.

So Relativity is not resting on unproven assumptions, but rather it's resting on verified facts.

Your arguments are NOT scientifically valid arguments.
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Post #70

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 66 by EarthScienceguy]
You really do not give a reason why you think they are invalid. I guess because you do not like the consequences if they are valid, who knows.


It is because they are not justified in any way whatsoever. You've shown repeatedly in the other discussion about Humphreys' planetary magnetic field "theory" that you think any assumptions are fine no matter how outlandish, as long as they can lead to some result that by pure coincidence might match measurements in a few cases. In no way can you claim that Humphreys' statement that god came along and aligned all of the H-atom nuclear spins in his imaginary balls of water planets is science, or that these are valid assumptions. They are completely made up with no observational or physical support.

Compare this to something like General Relativity which you are butchering in another thread. Einstein and his colleagues worked out the mathematics of that hypothesis using known axioms of mathematics and the physics of the day (various tensor definitions, coordinate transformations, etc.). It was all put together within the known laws of physics and it made predictions such as how the precession in the orbit of Mercury could be explained, and that light from distance stars passing close to the sun from our Earth viewpoint would be deflected making the stars appear to be shifted from their positions relative to when the sun was not close to the direct light path from the stars to Earth. There were no assumptions pulled from the hind end (or vague interpretations of bible verses) involved. It is science building on prior science, with no baseless assumptions needed, and subsequently confirmed (repeatedly) by measurements.
Assumptions are only baseless if they cannot produce valid theories that can make predictions.


That speaks for itself. You just don't understand how real science works at the most basic level. Assumptions may be needed to formulate a hypothesis, but it is testing, measurements, experiments, analysis, etc. that must confirm the validity of the assumptions within a theory for it to be internally consistent.
A person could have the assumption that that the moon is made of swiss cheese, but this would not be a valid assumption because it would not make accurate predictions.


It depends on what you are trying to predict. If it was albedo under certain conditions a cheese may measure up pretty well. In your view someone could assume the moon is made of concrete and glass, and since that might produce a mass roughly close to that of the moon you'd say that the assumption is perfectly valid. Then we can go to the moon, collect samples and do measurements, and show that it is not made of concrete and glass (or cheese), thereby invalidating the original assumption.

Humphreys (or any of this type of charlatan) makes assumptions for his own convenience, tries to find some bible reference to justify it (usually all he needs is for there to be water, which he then claims is present at whatever level is needed, at whatever location, in any phase), then creates a "theory" to try and convince people that modern science is consistent with biblical stories. His entire goal is that ... to try and legitamize creationism as actual science.

His planetary magnetic field "theory" can be shown to be completely false because we know the planets did not start as balls of H2O (a primary assumption he made), and the idea that a god came along and aligned all of the H-atom nuclear spins is just utter nonsense that cannot be tested even if it wasn't utter nonsense. Yet you are happy to believe this kind of thing and call it science, thereby proving you don't really understand how actual science works. An internally consistent theory cannot be based on random assumptions that cannot be verified via tests, experiments, observations, etc.
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