Living in a fallen Darwinian world
Moderator: Moderators
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Living in a fallen Darwinian world
Post #1The universe is in a fallen state. The thorns and thistles in Genesis 3 is an apt metaphor that the Darwinian world is the fallen world of Genesis 3. Under natural selection plants evolve thorns and thistles as a protective mechanism. I don't want to debate Genesis, rather I'd like to see why people think "Adam" (call it biological consciousness) couldn't in principle be responsible for a fallen world when a true understanding of time and space are not fully understood. I have no problem with consciousness being a causal factor in answering why the world is in this Darwinian state.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Post #21
harvey1 wrote:
The above addresses your objections.
It doesn't address this one:
- "What is missing yet again is any support for your claims. You continue to assume the universe is in a fallen state and expect others to do the same."
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #22
[Replying to Tcg]
I simply defined a fallen universe as a universe having Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites. At one time in the history of the universe there didn't exist these fallen properties. And, clearly, there are Darwinian outcomes in the universe today so why deny the definition?
I simply defined a fallen universe as a universe having Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites. At one time in the history of the universe there didn't exist these fallen properties. And, clearly, there are Darwinian outcomes in the universe today so why deny the definition?
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Post #23
When?harvey1 wrote: [Replying to Tcg]
At one time in the history of the universe there didn't exist these fallen properties.
How do you know this?
What can you present to support this claim?
Am I simply to take your word for it?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #24
[Replying to post 23 by Tcg]
Darwinian processes can't exist when the universe was above a certain temperature. For example, at 380,000 years after the big bang the universe was at 3000 Kelvin. That's much too hot for any Darwinian process to exist.
Darwinian processes can't exist when the universe was above a certain temperature. For example, at 380,000 years after the big bang the universe was at 3000 Kelvin. That's much too hot for any Darwinian process to exist.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Post #25
[Replying to post 24 by harvey1]
I didn't ask about Darwinian processes. I asked about "fallen properties."
Tcg
I didn't ask about Darwinian processes. I asked about "fallen properties."
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #26
[Replying to post 25 by Tcg]
I defined fallen properties as having Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites. Such Darwinian outcomes require Darwinian processes which are not feasible at high temperatures. Hence, fallen properties (Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites) did not exist in the very early universe.
I defined fallen properties as having Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites. Such Darwinian outcomes require Darwinian processes which are not feasible at high temperatures. Hence, fallen properties (Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites) did not exist in the very early universe.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Post #27
harvey1 wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Tcg]
I defined fallen properties as having Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites. Such Darwinian outcomes require Darwinian processes which are not feasible at high temperatures. Hence, fallen properties (Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites) did not exist in the very early universe.
In what way are "Darwinian outcomes" fallen properties?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #28
[Replying to post 27 by Tcg]
I defined the Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites as fallen properties. We could just as well call them F-properties if you prefer. They form a class of Darwinian outcomes that result in pain and suffering and even death to humans and other sentient life. They are typically associated with "natural evils" in philosophical discussions dealing with theism, natural selection, and the problem of evil.
I defined the Darwinian outcomes along the lines of poisons and parasites as fallen properties. We could just as well call them F-properties if you prefer. They form a class of Darwinian outcomes that result in pain and suffering and even death to humans and other sentient life. They are typically associated with "natural evils" in philosophical discussions dealing with theism, natural selection, and the problem of evil.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
-
Tcg
- Savant
- Posts: 8495
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
- Location: Third Stone
- Has thanked: 2147 times
- Been thanked: 2295 times
Post #29
harvey1 wrote: [Replying to post 27 by Tcg]
They form a class of Darwinian outcomes that result in pain and suffering and even death to humans and other sentient life.
They provide a benefit to those life forms that rely on them for their survival. Why should that be considered a fallen state?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
-
harvey1
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3452
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Post #30
[Replying to post 29 by Tcg]
It's just a definition. Even if we see it as overall beneficial, etc. the state is definable in general terms as "fallen." If you prefer, we can just call it an F-state. It doesn't change the overall argument.
It's just a definition. Even if we see it as overall beneficial, etc. the state is definable in general terms as "fallen." If you prefer, we can just call it an F-state. It doesn't change the overall argument.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart
