Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

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EarthScienceguy
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Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #1

Post by EarthScienceguy »

Jim Al-Khalili in his book "Paradox" made the following statement on page 148.

"Both our future and our past -indeed all of time must exist together and are all equally real" He also concluded on page 149, "Time is like a DVD movie in which one can jump around."

Al-Khalili goes on to say that there would be no such thing as free will if this is all there was to the universe because of the fact that past present and future all exist and be equally real."

He proposes a solution to this paradox on page 151 and 152. The quantum multiverse. "An infinite number of parallel universes all piled on top each other. And every time a choice is made you are thrown into that universe that looks exactly the same except for that one different choice that you made.

Question does this help the problem of free will?

There are only 2 possible solutions that can happen here.

1. All the alternative universes have to exist there for their past present and future also have to exist.

This solution only exacerbates the creation problem. Not only would our universe have to be created but every other universe almost infinite number of universes would have to be created.

2. We are all God's and every decision we make creates a new universe. The universe that we all perceive we are in right now is nothing more than someones good decision that they made since Earth Science guy is in this one.
This also brings into question what exactly is a universe if they can be created by the thought of so many beings.

As this options is thought through absurdity soon finds its home.



The only answer to a universe in which we perceive to find ourselves is a a universe in which God created every point on the timeline at the same time. This would give everyone the free will they desire and God the Sovereignty that He says that He has in His word.

Conclusion the only answer to this universe is Yahweh.

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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #2

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 1 by EarthScienceguy]
Question does this help the problem of free will?


No. It is nothing more than his personal opinion on something that may or may not be true. We have free will because we have complex brains capable of making decisions, including bad ones. It is as simple as that. Rocks don't have free will because they don't have brains, and the existence of multiverses is a hypothesis yet to be verified by observations or experiments.
As this options is thought through absurdity soon finds its home.


Indeed ... although I might expand it to the entire post. All you did here was to quote a person with some science credentials, and an opinion on multiverses, so that you could then make your final statements (preaching) that a specific god (Yahweh) created time and the universe and this god is the "answer" to this universe. There is no scientific issue here to debate that might intersect religion. Multiverses are science fiction at the moment ... and gods are just plain old ordinary fiction as far as we know.

If you want another scientist's opinion on multiverses, here is a quote from Paul Davies (copied from Wikipedia's main article on multiverses):

"For a start, how is the existence of the other universes to be tested? To be sure, all cosmologists accept that there are some regions of the universe that lie beyond the reach of our telescopes, but somewhere on the slippery slope between that and the idea that there is an infinite number of universes, credibility reaches a limit. As one slips down that slope, more and more must be accepted on faith, and less and less is open to scientific verification. Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith."

— Paul Davies, The New York Times, "A Brief History of the Multiverse"
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Post #3

Post by Willum »

So, if thermodynamics is wrong, Yahweh exists?
I’lol agree with that.

Thermo is highly observed and will not be revised significantly.

So...
I hate to tell you, a Yahweh no exist.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #4

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Conclusion the only answer to this universe is Yahweh.
Even if we were faced to conclude that some type of God must exist, why would that point to the God of the Hebrews?

The simple truth is that it wouldn't.

A huge problem that Abrahamic theists have is that general arguments for the possible existence of an abstract idea of a God does not support their religious dogma.

In fact, all this does is reveal their extreme bias in thinking that if a magical God needs to exist this would somehow support their favorite God myths.

That fact is that that argument doesn't hole any water.

You may as well have said:

"Conclusion the only answer to this universe is Zeus."

That would have made precisely the same sense, which is none.
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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #5

Post by Bust Nak »

EarthScienceguy wrote: 1. All the alternative universes have to exist there for their past present and future also have to exist.

This solution only exacerbates the creation problem. Not only would our universe have to be created but every other universe almost infinite number of universes would have to be created.
If this universe do not have to be created then why would any other universe have to be created?
2. We are all God's and every decision we make creates a new universe. The universe that we all perceive we are in right now is nothing more than someones good decision that they made since Earth Science guy is in this one.
This also brings into question what exactly is a universe if they can be created by the thought of so many beings.

As this options is thought through absurdity soon finds its home.
Like what? And what does "create" mean in this sense? Many-worlds interpretation sense of create doesn't require any of us to be gods.
Conclusion the only answer to this universe is Yahweh.
What about all the usual absurdity that goes this this answer? If we take your word for granted, then it seems like we have 3 undesirable solution and the sensible thing to do here, is to discard the idea of freewill. Why a lack of freewill would harm a rational universe, I can only guess at.

Finally, do you have the actual passages we can review? The bits quoted sound sensible enough, but I want to see what he actually said about the solution. You have access to the passages in question, right?

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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #6

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods]
No. It is nothing more than his personal opinion on something that may or may not be true. We have free will because we have complex brains capable of making decisions, including bad ones. It is as simple as that. Rocks don't have free will because they don't have brains, and the existence of multiverses is a hypothesis yet to be verified by observations or experiments.

Quote:
As this options is thought through absurdity soon finds its home.


Indeed ... although I might expand it to the entire post. All you did here was to quote a person with some science credentials, and an opinion on multiverses, so that you could then make your final statements (preaching) that a specific god (Yahweh) created time and the universe and this god is the "answer" to this universe. There is no scientific issue here to debate that might intersect religion. Multiverses are science fiction at the moment ... and gods are just plain old ordinary fiction as far as we know.
The multi-verse is simply this a many other scientist solution for Einstein's "Grand-father paradox" as Al-Khalili calls it. If you are saying that there is no multiverse then there is no such thing as free will according to modern physics. This like the 3rd world class physicists that I have quoted that has expressed this idea that past, present and future all exist and are real plus all of the scientist that are quoted on Greene's video.

The consequence of the past, present and future all existing makes free will an illusion, everything was predetermined at the big bang or whatever you want to call the creation event.

As we understand physics at this time nature has no possible way of creating a universe in which we perceive we live in.

The only answer to this Problem that Einstein created is a Creator God that can transcend all moments of time.
If you want another scientist's opinion on multiverses, here is a quote from Paul Davies (copied from Wikipedia's main article on multiverses):

"For a start, how is the existence of the other universes to be tested? To be sure, all cosmologists accept that there are some regions of the universe that lie beyond the reach of our telescopes, but somewhere on the slippery slope between that and the idea that there is an infinite number of universes, credibility reaches a limit. As one slips down that slope, more and more must be accepted on faith, and less and less is open to scientific verification. Extreme multiverse explanations are therefore reminiscent of theological discussions. Indeed, invoking an infinity of unseen universes to explain the unusual features of the one we do see is just as ad hoc as invoking an unseen Creator. The multiverse theory may be dressed up in scientific language, but in essence it requires the same leap of faith."

— Paul Davies, The New York Times, "A Brief History of the Multiverse"
I actually could not have said that better myself, well maybe I could have but you would have said I was preaching again. The multiverse is simply the physicist communities solution to this problem that Einstein created with relativity.

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Post #7

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 3 by Willum]
So, if thermodynamics is wrong, Yahweh exists?
I’lol agree with that.

Thermo is highly observed and will not be revised significantly.

So...
I hate to tell you, a Yahweh no exist.
Thermodynamics says that entropy will increase until it reaches equilibrium. Once it reaches equilibrium it becomes unchanging.

Sean Carroll describes this in his book from "Eternity to here". Where he describes the mother of all universes. He states that something can be eternal if it is unchanging. And that is exactly how the Bible explains God. God is unchanging. And he can be unchanging if exists in the present tense at every moment and at every place in the universe. And this is exactly how the Bible describes God.

So God can and does exist and He has to have the attributes that something needs to exist eternally. Theologians throughout the millennia has always described God as unchanging and omnipresent.

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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #8

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]
Even if we were faced to conclude that some type of God must exist, why would that point to the God of the Hebrews?

The simple truth is that it wouldn't.

A huge problem that Abrahamic theists have is that general arguments for the possible existence of an abstract idea of a God does not support their religious dogma.

In fact, all this does is reveal their extreme bias in thinking that if a magical God needs to exist this would somehow support their favorite God myths.

That fact is that that argument doesn't hole any water.

You may as well have said:

"Conclusion the only answer to this universe is Zeus."

That would have made precisely the same sense, which is none.
If you are saying Zeus could have created the universe, that could not be because Zeus lives in the universe. The first qualifier of the true God is that the description of that God must match what we know about the universe in which we live.

Care to try again.

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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

EarthScienceguy wrote: The only answer to this Problem that Einstein created is a Creator God that can transcend all moments of time.
Even if that were true, which it isn't, there would be no reason to think that the God created by the ancient Hebrews would be a correct description of God.

The Bible describes a God who is an extreme self-contradiction. He's said to be smart, but he does the dumbest of things in his desperate attempt to solve problems that he himself created. And more importantly his lame unintelligent attempts to solve his problems never even work anyway.

To believe in the God of the Bible we would need to believe that the Creator God is a complete bumbling idiot who can't even solve the simplest of problems.

In Genesis this God curses Satan to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his days. And extremely ignorant act by this mythological God. We can also ask if this ignorant curse solve the problem, and the Bible clearly tells us that it didn't. It not only didn't solve the problem, but Satan's evil influence over mankind only continued to grow until every human on earth had evil thoughts. :roll:

This is the Biblical story of the Hebrew's mythological God.

So what does bumbling idiot of a God do now? He tells one evil human to build a boat to save the animal kingdom as well as his own offspring and in-laws. And then this God floods the entire world to kill all the evil people. And this idiot God even repents that he had ever created them.

This is the Biblical story of the Hebrew's mythological God.

So here we have this Creator God himself confessing that he's an inept creator who cannot even create good humans, nor can he keep Satan under control.

And we can ask, "Did this solve the problem of evil?"

The Bible tells us in no uncertain terms that it most certainly did not. So once again we have a God who can't even solve a simple problem.

It only gets worse when the Christians take over this mythology.

They have this God splitting into three different entities and sending one of them to Earth through the virgin birth of a sinful woman. Then this multi-personality God arranges to have humans brutally crucify himself so that he can pay the wages of sin for them. This is obviously the most desperate action this God has taken yet. Clearly this is an extremely desperate God who is at the end of his rope. None of his attempts to solve evil has worked. So now he's even given up on trying to solve the problem and instead is just offering free undeserved amnesty to anyone who accept his suicide mission on their behalf.

This is the Biblical story of the Christian's mythological God.

A God who has totally given up on even trying to rid the world of sin and instead as changed his mind and decided to offer free amnesty instead.

We can ask, "Does this solve the problem?"

The answer if of course, no. Instead of solving any problems this God has finally just decided to offer free amnesty instead. The problem of evil remains. So this God never solved the problem of evil at all.

Moreover, does this save all of human souls?

Well, no it doesn't. Even the virgin-born Christian demigod Jesus tells us that only FEW will make it into God's kingdom.

So there we have it.

The Bible describes a God who can't even save the very souls he creates. He's an extremely inept and inefficient Creator God who loses the vast majority of human souls that he creates.

Moreover, the one's he actually "saves" are evil too!

Please note that God didn't offer to save innocent decent humans. Instead all he has done is offer undeserved amnesty to evil humans.

So he end up saving evil humans in the end anyway.

This is a Creator God myth that has a God who can't create anything but evil humans.

So this is hardly a God we can point to as being the solution to anything. He can't even solve his own problems.
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Re: Yawheh is the only solution for a rational universe.

Post #10

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 6 by EarthScienceguy]
If you are saying that there is no multiverse then there is no such thing as free will according to modern physics.


Modern physics does not concern itself with free will, or any such philosophical issues. It doesn't address the subject in any way so I'm not sure where the above statement comes from ... other than that it is some conclusion you have reached based on a misunderstanding of what physics is. Merriam-Webster defines free will as:

1 : voluntary choice or decision I do this of my own free will.

2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

Their definition of physics is:

1 : a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions.

Explain how modern physics leads to a conclusion that without multiverses there can be no free will, given that modern physics does not address free will at all.
As we understand physics at this time nature has no possible way of creating a universe in which we perceive we live in.


By "we" are you referring to creationists? Because otherwise this sentence makes no sense. If the Big Bang hypothesis turns out to be correct (or even if it doesn't), we know that about 4.6 billion years ago a planet we call Earth formed in the solar system we all live in. Of the huge variety of life forms that evolved since that time, one very recent example is Homo sapiens. These animals evolved highly complex brains that allow them to perceive a universe that they live in, to have free will, and all kinds of other capabilities that their body form and high level of intelligence allows. It is a pretty simple scenario, and does not require any kind of god (or multiverses) in the process.
The only answer to this Problem that Einstein created is a Creator God that can transcend all moments of time.


Clearly not the only answer, because a Creator God has never been shown to exist. Many have been postulated to exist, but not one has ever been demonstrated to actually exist (much like multiverses as Paul Davies said). These things may one day be shown to exist, but as of today neither of them have.
The multiverse is simply the physicist communities solution to this problem that Einstein created with relativity.


It is one of many hypotheses, yet to be confirmed. Relativity has been experimentally proven to describe many aspects of nature and we take advantage of these things every day (eg. the GPS system and corrections to the clocks on those satellites). Multiverses are still at a hypothesis stage ... the same as gods ... and have nothing to do with free will.
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