Is prayer really communication with God?

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Diagoras
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Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #1

Post by Diagoras »

From a different thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma:
2timothy316 wrote:The only miracle I know of that everyone can perform today on demand is prayer. Communication with a being that doesn't even live in our space-time continuum is quite a miracle. Technologically speaking mankind can't make any form of communication move faster than the speed of light. Yet in prayer we can talk to God who lives in a whole other universe that we cannot measure even less reach and He can, through holy spirit, direct us to the Bible to communicate back to us.
There are multiple claims within this quote: There exists a god who ‘lives in a whole other universe’. Two-way communication with this god is possible through prayer (from ‘us’) and ‘holy spirit’ (from ‘god’). The holy spirit’s effect is to ‘direct us to the Bible’. And finally, everyone can perform this miracle on demand.

Questions for debate: Can any of this be proven to be true?

What sort of experiment could we devise to satisfactorily test this? And why should the ‘holy spirit’ be confined to just directing the praying person to a book?

I submit as the null hypothesis that such ‘communication’ is purely one’s own internal thoughts - either consciously or subconsciously ‘thinking through a problem’, or possibly (and rarely) an effect of some neurological condition such as schizophrenia. No god involved.

A stipulation for the debate: individual anecdotes along the lines of “I prayed for X and it came true� won’t be considered as strong evidence.

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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:You seem here to be inviting personal experience, why? Have you not been trying to say that such information has no place in this thread?
Fair point. ...If everyone receives the holy spirit reply in the same way, that would be stronger evidence for something genuinely happening outside a person’s head.
Ok, I see. Well, you are free of course invite personal experiences if you like and someone interested in posting about their intimate, private interactions with their god on the internet to complete stangers on a public forum may well take up the invitation.

I too would be intersted to see if someone does this,

Regards


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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote:
EarthScienceguy wrote:Why would you think that anyone can do this? Prayer is only for those who believe
It’s not my claim. Maybe 2timothy316 needs to clarify what he meant, but meanwhile we have conflicting claims from Christians here: either everyone, or only a restricted few.
Indeed. It might be an idea to go back to Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma, where Tim posted and ask for clarification. Your question as to whether Christians believe everyone has access to the power of prayer and by application the effects of holy spirit is a theological (doctrinal) queston not a scientific one. Are you sure you want to be asking this question in this forum?
DrNoGods wrote:
Better to apply science where it is useful and productive (ie. study of the natural, physical world) and leave religion in the realm of the supernatural and not try to mix the two.
Well put. Tim posted in a forum where the bible is viewed as authoritive and I am confident he is more than capable of defending his position using said documentation. To move his words over to religion and science and then imply he needs to defend his claims as if they were scientific claims when they were probably biblical ones is, I think missing his point entirely. If he had wanted his post to be in the Religion & Science subforum , I'm pretty sure he would have been able to post in the Religion & Science subforum.

Perhaps we should copy posts from here in R&S over to Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma and then challenge their writers to prove what they say with the bible.





JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #33

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
It should not therefore destabilize anyone if they see posts in this forum where posters state their position based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings. Unless such ones claim they are wish their position to be considered a scientific claim (which I did not) then there is no reason to be overly conserned such evidence being posted in this forum.

You may ignore the evidence being presented if your more comforable with that.

JW

"Religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings" are not evidence. They are claims. Claims presented absent verifiable evidence can indeed be ignored comfortably.


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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #34

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Perhaps we should copy posts from here in R&S over to Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma and then challenge their writers to prove what they say with the bible.

JW
Are you suggesting that theological claims only stand up when they are examined in a venue in which theological claims are accepted without question?

If so, I agree with you. The only way claims made of communication with a God hold up is when one accepts without question that communication with a God happens.

Put them under the light of rational examination and they melt away.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Post #35

Post by Diagoras »

My position on posting ‘personal experiences’ repeated:
Diagoras wrote: I accept that not everyone is willing to consider exploring prayer (a very personal thing) from a scientific point of view. I wish to reiterate however, that I’m not challenging the fact that some people pray, and that they appear to gain a real benefit from it. I’m merely interested in the ‘how’ - the mechanics of it all.

<snip>

If anyone of faith was willing to share something about this without the usual line of “you won’t know until you try it�, that might provide an interesting jumping off point for further discussion. But since sharing what is (I expect) an intensely private experience would be quite challenging, I’ll understand if there aren’t many takers.
Just to make clear I acknowledge it’s a very private thing.
Your question as to whether Christians believe everyone has access to the power of prayer and by application the effects of holy spirit is a theological (doctrinal) queston not a scientific one. Are you sure you want to be asking this question in this forum?
Then I must have been confused by some of the language from the original quote:

“space-time continuum ... Technologically speaking ... faster than the speed of light ... a whole other universe...�

It seems to me that if we’re setting the demarcation of debates based on whether a claim is based solely on theological doctrine or not, then such scientific language is out of place. I simply noticed a claim which purported to rely on some basic scientific concepts in order to conclude something was ‘miraculous’. I wished to learn to what extent this could be supported, and my impression is that it can’t.
Perhaps we should copy posts from here in R&S over to Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma and then challenge their writers to prove what they say with the bible.
Quite a revealing ‘parting shot’. My impression is that you view my opening post as unfairly taking a theist’s quote somehow out of context. I will concede that within the ‘protected space’ of Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma, words like ‘everyone’ might be generally accepted to mean something different to someone outside that forum. You might ask yourself though, “Why, out of many posts on that forum, did Diagoras choose to start a debate on that particular post�? The answer is that it appeared - by the language chosen - to intersect the boundary between religion and science. That’s something that interests me, and seemed wholly appropriate to quote in a forum dedicated to exploring that very boundary.

If I start using biblical language to describe some scientific phenomenon, then by all means call me out on it and quote me in T,D&D. I’m more than comfortable with that rule applying to everyone.

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Post #36

Post by William »

William: I think prayer is the same as casting spells. One asks for the assistance of an invisible entity which one believes exists and can help.

In that, it is not so much a device of communication between entities, and thus cannot easily be examined using scientific method.

If a kind of communion could be set up where the communion was both ways, then I think that this should be able to be examined scientifically.


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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #37

Post by marco »

EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 17 by Clownboat]
I am a former believer and therefore held the magical powers of understanding prayer that you claim alludes the rest of humanity.
There is no such thing as a former believer. If Jesus did not keep you, you were never His.

But reality tells us there are indeed former believers, as indeed there are former sinners. There are degrees of belief and there are different beliefs. If we take the position that our own special brand of Christianity is IT, then I suppose it is easy to pontificate, and claim that all other models are inferior.

The theology you advertise here seems far removed from Jesus and his parables, especially the lost sheep or the prodigal son. People do get lost, according to the ideas Jesus taught, and some are found again with great rejoicing.

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Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #38

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to marco]
But reality tells us there are indeed former believers, as indeed there are former sinners. There are degrees of belief and there are different beliefs. If we take the position that our own special brand of Christianity is IT, then I suppose it is easy to pontificate, and claim that all other models are inferior.
Observation shows us:

1. There are those that confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and they continue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord for the entirety of their life.

2. There are those that confess that Jesus Christ is Lord but they do not confess that Jesus Christ is Lord for the entirety of their life.

There are no degrees of belief because man has nothing to do with salvation. Man is predestined to salvation.

Romans 8:28-30

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."


The theology you advertise here seems far removed from Jesus and his parables, especially the lost sheep or the prodigal son. People do get lost, according to the ideas Jesus taught, and some are found again with great rejoicing.
Only if you do not understand the setting and traditions of the Jewish culture.

In the lost sheep parable the sheep that ended up lost was a follower of its sheppard and wandered off. So a believer can wander off into sin, but the sheppard does not allow the sheep to be lost. In the time when Jesus told this parable, when shepherds had sheep that wandered off they broke their legs and then cared for them until this injury was healed. This gave them a love for the shepherd so this sheep would never wander off again because of its love for the shepherd.

This is what happens when Christians fall into sin. Jesus shows them His love and because of their love for Jesus their desire is to follow Jesus, their shepherd.

So this parable describes how God deals with Christians who may fall into sin.

The parable of the prodigal son describes the same concept as the parable of the lost sheep, this is why Luke 15 contains both of these parables.

In the parable of the prodigal son, the son was part of the family and it was the sons love for the father that brought the son back. But he was always a son.

There are other parables that Jesus told that describe non believers in the mist of believers. Take for example the parable He told of the wheat and the tares.

Matthew 13:24-30

"He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.�’�


Tares and wheat looks exactly alike when they are growing. The only time you can tell them a apart is when they begin to mature. And they will not be separated until the harvest when they will be thrown into the Lake of burning sulfur.

Now some of these that say they were once Christians may still be part of the family of God and love for Christ will stop them from the sin they are engaged in.

But others who say were once Christians will never return because they were never part of us (Christians)

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

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