Is prayer really communication with God?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #1

Post by Diagoras »

From a different thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma:
2timothy316 wrote:The only miracle I know of that everyone can perform today on demand is prayer. Communication with a being that doesn't even live in our space-time continuum is quite a miracle. Technologically speaking mankind can't make any form of communication move faster than the speed of light. Yet in prayer we can talk to God who lives in a whole other universe that we cannot measure even less reach and He can, through holy spirit, direct us to the Bible to communicate back to us.
There are multiple claims within this quote: There exists a god who ‘lives in a whole other universe’. Two-way communication with this god is possible through prayer (from ‘us’) and ‘holy spirit’ (from ‘god’). The holy spirit’s effect is to ‘direct us to the Bible’. And finally, everyone can perform this miracle on demand.

Questions for debate: Can any of this be proven to be true?

What sort of experiment could we devise to satisfactorily test this? And why should the ‘holy spirit’ be confined to just directing the praying person to a book?

I submit as the null hypothesis that such ‘communication’ is purely one’s own internal thoughts - either consciously or subconsciously ‘thinking through a problem’, or possibly (and rarely) an effect of some neurological condition such as schizophrenia. No god involved.

A stipulation for the debate: individual anecdotes along the lines of “I prayed for X and it came true� won’t be considered as strong evidence.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: [Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]
Certainly it possible for this to be proven.
I’m hoping so.
So the veracity of prayer can be proven by solid logical argumentation
I deliberately started this thread in the Science forum, not the Philosophy forum, as I am more interested in exploring the idea of whether the act of human-to-deity communication (‘H2D Comm’) could be verified by experimentation.
Science hasn't advanced enough to deal with the supernatural so it can neither prove nor disprove anything to do with this realm, logically then it will have to settle on documented personal experience until it advances enough to do better. Until then we can confirm that none of Tims statements can or have been proven to be false.


Regards,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #12

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Until then we can confirm that none of Tims statements can or have been proven to be false.
Given that Tim has made claims he can't prove true, the correct way to word this is that none of his statements have been proven true. It would be his job to prove them true, not another's job to prove them false.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #13

Post by Difflugia »

EarthScienceguy wrote:So no there is no where God is not. In fact for God to be the creator of the world He not only has to be at every point in space but also a every point in time all at the same time. That is what is meant by omnipresent.
How would one tell the difference between omnipresent and imaginary?

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #14

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote:Science hasn't advanced enough to deal with the supernatural
The contrary view: science has advanced as far as it has because it doesn’t deal with the supernatural.
so it can neither prove nor disprove anything to do with this realm
In much the same way as it can’t prove or disprove anything imagined but not real, then. However, a significant proportion of people believe it (H2D Comm), so for those who don’t understand it, experimentation and testing is their best option.

The ‘prayer Faraday cage’ idea is exactly the kind of thing that a scientist would pay attention to - we now have an additional claim that prayer works in places such as mine shafts just as well as open spaces.
logically then it will have to settle on documented personal experience until it advances enough to do better.
Is this the ‘logical proof’ I was promised?
Until then we can confirm that none of Tims statements can or have been proven to be false.
Or, proven to be true either. So why would someone make such a claim in the first place? Presumably because they felt their belief in the claim could be substantiated somehow. I’m interested in knowing what that could be.

If the religious position is going to be simply “You/Science will never understand�, then expect a bunch of follow-up ‘Why?’ questions. Science has a good track record of addressing difficult questions.

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #15

Post by Diagoras »

EarthScienceguy wrote:God is a being that can act outside of our three dimensional universe. So can you point me to the fourth dimension or 5th dimension. Or could you set a test up for me that can measure a value in the 4th or 5th dimensions. Most theories on the structure of the universe have more than the 4 dimensions we can perceive. So most physicist believe that there are dimensions that we cannot sense.

<bolding mine>

*points to clock*

Joking aside, the original claim for H2D Comm is that ‘anyone’ can do this. Suddenly, you’re saying that it’s only something that a believer can do. All you are doing is defeating the original claim.

Why should I have to ‘point to the fifth dimension’ anyway? All humans experience the same number of dimensions as each other, so presumably the act of prayer for a human doesn’t involve somehow accessing dimensions other than what we usually perceive. And if the ‘reply’ from your god is transmitted through a different dimension, then how is that received by a human who can’t interact with that dimension? There has to be some sort of interdimensional conversion going on.
Prayer is not to receive good things from God although that does sometime happens (sic)
I believe I’ve already stated as such, so no disagreement there.
but it is to align our will with God's will. This is also a topic that a non believer would not understand. Non believers cannot understand this because they do not believe they are a sinner in need of a savior. There is nothing that brings a believer more joy than to know their sins are forgiven and for them to be aligned with the will of God. That is a believers great joy. I do not think that would be the case for a non believer.
So if you sin against someone, but are then forgiven by only God, you’d be happy about that? Wouldn’t being forgiven by the person you sinned against have more meaning - and possibly joy for both of you, not just the sinner?

I’m hearing more of the “you would never understand� argument than I initially thought I would. Surely one of the purposes of this forum is to promote understanding? Wouldn’t anyone like to engage in a way that aligns with those purposes?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

2timothy316 wrote:The only miracle I know of that everyone can perform today on demand is prayer. Communication with a being that doesn't even live in our space-time continuum is quite a miracle. Technologically speaking mankind can't make any form of communication move faster than the speed of light. Yet in prayer we can talk to God who lives in a whole other universe that we cannot measure even less reach and He can, through holy spirit, direct us to the Bible to communicate back to us.
Diagoras wrote:
Until then we can confirm that none of Tims statements can or have been proven to be false.
Or, proven to be true either. So why would someone make such a claim in the first place? Presumably because they felt their belief in the claim could be substantiated somehow.
Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers. If anyone wants to know whether God will interact with them, we as believers invite them to learn about the God of the bible and pray to Him in faith. We are absolutely confident they will receive confirmation of his existence and affection for them and further guidance through holy spirit in return.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1240 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #17

Post by Clownboat »

EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Diagoras]

No prayer cannot be scientifically proven and it does not need to be. Prayer is not for the unbeliever it is for the believer and a nonbeliever can not understand prayer for 2 reasons.

1. How would a two dimensional being understand the third dimension? God is a being that can act outside of our three dimensional universe. So can you point me to the fourth dimension or 5th dimension. Or could you set a test up for me that can measure a value in the 4th or 5th dimensions. Most theories on the structure of the universe have more than the 4 dimensions we can perceive. So most physicist believe that there are dimensions that we cannot sense.

2. Prayer is not to receive good things from God although that does sometime happens but it is to align our will with God's will. This is also a topic that a non believer would not understand. Non believers cannot understand this because they do not believe they are a sinner in need of a savior. There is nothing that brings a believer more joy than to know their sins are forgiven and for them to be aligned with the will of God. That is a believers great joy. I do not think that would be the case for a non believer.
I am a former believer and therefore held the magical powers of understanding prayer that you claim alludes the rest of humanity.

I understood prayer and still do (can still speak in tongues also as a matter of fact) and I find your claims to be nothing more than poisoning of the well.

What's next, evolution is a religion! Nevermind, you are already trying that move out as well.

Poisoning the well and attempting to level the playing field. Nothing to read here it seems.

Got anything that shows praying to the gods has any effect on reality? If so, then we have something to read.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 9342
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 883 times
Been thanked: 1240 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #18

Post by Clownboat »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:The only miracle I know of that everyone can perform today on demand is prayer. Communication with a being that doesn't even live in our space-time continuum is quite a miracle. Technologically speaking mankind can't make any form of communication move faster than the speed of light. Yet in prayer we can talk to God who lives in a whole other universe that we cannot measure even less reach and He can, through holy spirit, direct us to the Bible to communicate back to us.
Diagoras wrote:
Until then we can confirm that none of Tims statements can or have been proven to be false.
Or, proven to be true either. So why would someone make such a claim in the first place? Presumably because they felt their belief in the claim could be substantiated somehow.
Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers. If anyone wants to know whether God will interact with them, we as believers invite them to learn about the God of the bible and pray to Him in faith. We are absolutely confident they will receive confirmation of his existence and affection for them and further guidance through holy spirit in return.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS
Yes, substantiated by documented evidence (presented in the Qur'an) and the personal experience of believers. If anyone wants to know whether Allah will interact with them, Muslim believers invite them to learn about the God of the Qur'an and pray to Him in faith. They are absolutely confident they will receive confirmation of his existence and affection for them and further guidance through the holy spirit in return.

The reply above appears thoughtless and meaningless as shown by how it applies to other religions. It has been made obvious that no holy spirit has provided guidance for these words.

What seems to be happening is humans musing about the gods, much like was done thousands of years ago and still to this day unfortunately. (Can't really blame the men of old as they didn't know any better though).
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #19

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Yes substaniated by documented evidence (presented in the bible) and the personal experience of believers.
Just a reminder about the forum guidelines:
This subforum is designed to foster debate on issues which intersect science and religion. While posters may certainly take positions based on religious doctrine, the Bible or other religious writings are not to be considered evidence for scientific claims.
I accept that not everyone is willing to consider exploring prayer (a very personal thing) from a scientific point of view. I wish to reiterate however, that I’m not challenging the fact that some people pray, and that they appear to gain a real benefit from it. I’m merely interested in the ‘how’ - the mechanics of it all. Any data based on personal experience is effectively useless from a scientific perspective unless it cannot be explained by natural means (coincidence, imagination, self-generated) - and even then, it’s not repeatable and testable.

For instance, it’s not clear to me how guidance is received. Does one hear a distinct voice in one’s head? Get a clear image? Or feel a strong compunction to open a bible at a particular point - or seemingly at random? Is there a clear correlation between the specificity of a question and the specificity of the answer? “Lord, make me a better person� could be interpreted as having been answered if the next day, you just felt calmer about things and were generally more pleasant to people.

If anyone of faith was willing to share something about this without the usual line of “you won’t know until you try it�, that might provide an interesting jumping off point for further discussion. But since sharing what is (I expect) an intensely private experience would be quite challenging, I’ll understand if there aren’t many takers.

User avatar
EarthScienceguy
Guru
Posts: 2192
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 43 times
Contact:

Re: Is prayer really communication with God?

Post #20

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 15 by Diagoras]
*points to clock*
That is an interesting point. What direction is the future of the past? Does a clock in our three dimensional world show the direction of time or a measurement of how it is moving?
Joking aside, the original claim for H2D Comm is that ‘anyone’ can do this. Suddenly, you’re saying that it’s only something that a believer can do. All you are doing is defeating the original claim.
Yes, I am. Why would you think that anyone can do this? Prayer is only for those who believe like 1 Peter 3:12 states:

"For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are inclined to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.�"

God does not hear the prayers of those who are not believers.
Why should I have to ‘point to the fifth dimension’ anyway? All humans experience the same number of dimensions as each other, so presumably the act of prayer for a human doesn’t involve somehow accessing dimensions other than what we usually perceive. And if the ‘reply’ from your god is transmitted through a different dimension, then how is that received by a human who can’t interact with that dimension? There has to be some sort of interdimensional conversion going on.
Yes exactly. Great way to put that. There is an interdimensional conversion going on. Christians do believe that we can and do exist in "other dimensions" for lack of better terms. It is our spirit that is connected to this other dimension. Like John 4:24 states "God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.� Humans are also part spirit and a Christian communicates to God by spirit.


Quote:
but it is to align our will with God's will. This is also a topic that a non believer would not understand. Non believers cannot understand this because they do not believe they are a sinner in need of a savior. There is nothing that brings a believer more joy than to know their sins are forgiven and for them to be aligned with the will of God. That is a believers great joy. I do not think that would be the case for a non believer.
So if you sin against someone, but are then forgiven by only God, you’d be happy about that? Wouldn’t being forgiven by the person you sinned against have more meaning - and possibly joy for both of you, not just the sinner?
It is much better to be forgiven by God than by man. But a Christian has to seek the forgiveness of the one they offended because that is what God commands his followers to do. This is why many times when people who have committed crimes come to Christ they turn themselves into authorities.
I’m hearing more of the “you would never understand� argument than I initially thought I would. Surely one of the purposes of this forum is to promote understanding? Wouldn’t anyone like to engage in a way that aligns with those purposes?
The Bible states that we pray to God in Spirit by using our Spirit. As far as I know atheist do not believe that part of a humans anatomy is spirit. So how would an atheist communicate with God?

Post Reply