Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

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Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #1

Post by Abdelrahman »

Peace be unto you all!

Is anyone here familiar with the modern evidence being discussed for Noah's flood? Specifically the work of Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock!

I highly encourage anyone with a basic understanding of environmental science or geology to watch their interviews with Joe Rogan on YOUTUBE. Mind blowing stuff they're discovering.

Graham Hancock studies ancient civilizations and shows us how the story of Noah's flood isn't exclusive to Abrahamic faiths but that many traditions across the world narrate a very similar story. I am not surprised to hear this sense it was a worldwide phenomenon. Randall Carlson gets into the geology, ice core samples, satellite images etc.. Its fascinating.

I challenge someone with a scientific background to watch one of their interviews and discuss the evidence here with me! Believers should rejoice at this evidence, I just wish more people were aware of their work!

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Post #41

Post by Zzyzx »

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[Replying to post 39 by Renon89]

Welcome to the Forum. This is not a church meeting. There is NO assumption that the Bible is authoritative and NO theistic position is given favorable treatment (consult C&A sub-forum Guidelines). Many who debate here are not Christians or Catholics (though there are several Ex-Catholics). Those accustomed to preaching to the choir or to fellow believers may be more comfortable in the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma sub-forum or Holy Huddle (where the Bible is held in higher regard).

It is folly to assume that Christians know more about the Bible than Non-Christians – and double folly to make claims that cannot be supported with verifiable evidence (verifiable means can be checked for truth and accuracy).

Be not discouraged, however. The Forum needs Theist debaters – just be aware of Forum Rules and Guidelines – and be aware that you WILL strong opposition, and that claims. Rest assured that stories will be challenged. There are some helpful suggestions about debate in General Chat.
Renon89 wrote: From the Catholic perspective,
Instead, let's consider the matter from the perspective of reasoning based on verifiable evidence – not on dogma.
Renon89 wrote: miracles that occur in the present cannot be explained by science or experts.
The unexplained decreases as knowledge, information, and education increase. Once mankind knows that diseases are caused by pathogens; floods and droughts by atmospheric and hydrologic processes; day and night by rotation of a spheroidal Earth; eclipses by orbiting Earth and Moon around the sun – those things are no longer attributed to supernatural entities.

That explains why there are few supernatural 'miracles' in present times as compared to ancient days when ignorance of real world relationships was commonplace.

Thus, “Shrinking God of the Gaps� (Google if unfamiliar)
Renon89 wrote: A requirement for sainthood is miracles attributed to the saint candidate. God, not the saint, performs the miracle.
Some people actually believe that? Noah's customers (see below)?
Renon89 wrote: The Church then calls in experts and witnesses like doctors who offer the necessary information, including the conclusion that the miracle cannot be explained.
If an event cannot be explained, Leprechauns did it. Some insist that their favorite 'god' (among the thousands of gods proposed, worshiped, loved, feared, and fought over by humans) was responsible. However, that is nothing more than opinion, speculation, and church propaganda.
Renon89 wrote: God gave Noah very specific instructions about the construction of the ark, including the use of pitch and a particular wood (gopher wood).
So goes the tale. A 500 year old man labors 100 years to build an Ark – then started selling waterfront property in Kansas.
Renon89 wrote: Scale model replicas have been found to be seaworthy. Aside from rain, the Bible tells us "all the fountains of the great deep burst forth" Genesis 7:11
The amount of water to 'flood the Earth to tops of mountains' is one BILLION cubic miles in addition to the Earth's total hydrology (and magically disappear from the Earth afterward). The tale of Noah's Flood has been debated MANY times in these threads – and has never been shown to be anything more than a myth. Of course, many or most Christians insist it is literally true account of a real event – but can provide NO verifiable evidence to support their claim.
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Post #42

Post by marco »

Renon89 wrote:

From the Catholic perspective, miracles that occur in the present cannot be explained by science or experts. A requirement for sainthood is miracles attributed to the saint candidate. God, not the saint, performs the miracle. The Church then calls in experts and witnesses like doctors who offer the necessary information, including the conclusion that the miracle cannot be explained.

True, an investigation takes place. But the problem is the conclusion. Because "experts" are inadequate to the task of explaining, the cause is attributed to God. In a past age thunder and lightning would likewise have been explained as being caused by some divinity. John Ogilvie was made a saint on the basis of his intervention in a cancer situation where doctors declared the patient was incurable, but he recovered after asking Ogilvie to intercede. We now know that the body sometimes produces interferon all by itself.
Renon89 wrote:
God gave Noah very specific instructions about the construction of the ark, including the use of pitch and a particular wood (gopher wood). Scale model replicas have been found to be seaworthy. Aside from rain, the Bible tells us "all the fountains of the great deep burst forth" Genesis 7:11

Noah was a remarkable 600-year-old man and the ship to be built would have rivalled the Titanic. His tale is preceded by the Sumerian story of the water god Enki flooding the land and allowing Utnapishtim and his wife to survive in a craft. They sent out a dove, a swallow and then a raven. The hero is granted immortality. The Greek equivalent told in the Metamorphoses of Ovid is about Deucalion and Pyrrha, who take no animals on board.

We have to pinch ourselves and remember this is the 21st century before we take these tales literally.

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Post #43

Post by Abdelrahman »

Gracchus said:
Until very recently the inhabitants of the Tigris-Euphrates delta would wait out the annual floods on reed boats along with their livestock.
Add some old grampaw entertaining the bored children with a few "stretchers" and you end up after a few generations with "holy scripture".
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths:

Oh don’t forget the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mmandin, Yoruba tribes of Africa. The Ojibwe, Mmenomini, Mi’kmaq, Anishinabe. Ottawa, Cree, Nipmuc, Innuit, Comox, Nisqually, Eskimo peoples of North America. The Canari, Inca, Mapuche, Muisca, Tupi peoples of South America. The Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Chinese (Nuwa and Yu) and Indian (Manu and Matsya), the Korean Mokdoryung, Malaysian Temuan and Orang Seletar. In the Philippines Igorot. The Tai-Kadai people. Medieval European peoples – Irish, Welsh, Nnorse and Finnish. The Polynesia and Hawaii myths of Nu’u, Rruatapu and Tawhaki. And of course followers of all Abrahamic faiths.

There is not one myth on Earth as widely circulated as the Flood myth. And everyone says that the man whom restarted civilization is one of their peoples. To Muslims, this is true since Noah was everyones father. That’s why everyone recounts the same story everywhere. Name me one other myth as widely circulated. Comparative mythology lists only a few and none are as wide spread as the Flood myth.

Guess everyone’s ‘grampaw’ day dreamed of the same story – I wonder why.
Renon89 said:
In contemporary miracles, the Catholic Church contacts everyone involved to investigate what happened…. The Church then calls in experts and witnesses like doctors who offer the necessary information, including the conclusion that the miracle cannot be explained.
What do you mean by this? I believe the flood did happen and I will defend my Christian brethren’s faith but just curious what you mean by this. Any examples?
"all the fountains of the great deep burst forth" Genesis 7:11
Muslims agree 100%. I just have issues with many other things in the Bible, maybe you could clear them up for me in a separate thread? I’d be interested to know the Catholic perspective on certain concepts.
Zzyzx said:
The amount of water to 'flood the Earth to tops of mountains' is one BILLION cubic miles in addition to the Earth's total hydrology (and magically disappear from the Earth afterward). The tale of Noah's Flood has been debated MANY times in these threads – and has never been shown to be anything more than a myth. Of course, many or most Christians insist it is literally true account of a real event – but can provide NO verifiable evidence to support their claim.
Check out my post 32. The Earth’s mantle may contain ¼ upto 4 times the amount of water in all the oceans on Earth. Given that the volume of water in the oceans is estimated at 1.35 billion cubic kilometers, I do not need to do the calculations. Just about 3 times the amount of water would be required – and it would sink back into the Earth.

I’d also like to reiterate, these are my personal views. Many Muslims believe the flood was localized as we are not told that specifically every mountain was covered with water, water may well have reached halfway up Everest or enough to wipe civilization out. I personally have no problem debating that this water reached the very tops of mountains.

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Post #44

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From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths:

Oh don’t forget the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mmandin, Yoruba tribes of Africa. The Ojibwe, Mmenomini, Mi’kmaq, Anishinabe. Ottawa, Cree, Nipmuc, Innuit, Comox, Nisqually, Eskimo peoples of North America. The Canari, Inca, Mapuche, Muisca, Tupi peoples of South America. The Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Chinese (Nuwa and Yu) and Indian (Manu and Matsya), the Korean Mokdoryung, Malaysian Temuan and Orang Seletar. In the Philippines Igorot. The Tai-Kadai people. Medieval European peoples – Irish, Welsh, Nnorse and Finnish. The Polynesia and Hawaii myths of Nu’u, Rruatapu and Tawhaki. And of course followers of all Abrahamic faiths.

There is not one myth on Earth as widely circulated as the Flood myth. And everyone says that the man whom restarted civilization is one of their peoples. To Muslims, this is true since Noah was everyones father. That’s why everyone recounts the same story everywhere. Name me one other myth as widely circulated. Comparative mythology lists only a few and none are as wide spread as the Flood myth.

Guess everyone’s ‘grampaw’ day dreamed of the same story – I wonder why.
You do the world a disservice by calling these myths the same story when they are not.

Aztec
In this story, Titlacauan warned the man named Note and his wife Nena, of a coming flood. Nata and Nena hollowed out a cypress tree, and Titlachahuan sealed them inside, telling them that they may only eat one ear of maize each. Here is where the story is wildly different from others.

The earth is flooded, but the people weren’t killed, instead, they were turned into fish. After the flood Nata and Nena disobeyed Titlacauan and ate fish. So Titlacauan turned them into dogs. The story ends with the world essentially starting all over again only this time with a hearty fish population and a couple of dogs.

Greeks
Zeus told Deucalion, the son of Prometheus, to construct an ark for himself and his wife, Pyrrha, who also happened to be Deucalion’s cousin. After nine days of flooding, the world was destroyed, and the ark rested on top of Mount Parnassus. When the waters receded, Deucalion and his cousin-wife offered a sacrifice to Zeus to learn how to repopulate the earth. Zeus told them to throw stones over their shoulders. The stones thrown by Deucalion became men, and those thrown behind Pyrrha became women.

Hindu
The Hindu deluge tale is unique from other religions. In Hindu teachings, Manu, or the first man, was not visited by a God, but rather by a fish. In some tellings of this story, the fish is the deity, Lord Vishnu. This fish/God told Manu that the world would be destroyed in a great flood. Manu built a boat and tied it to the horn of the great fish. The fish guided Manu’s boat through the floods and, not surprisingly, to the top of a mountain. When the floodwaters receded, Manu performed a ritual sacrifice and poured butter and sour milk into the sea. After a year, a woman rose from the water and announced herself as “the daughter of Manu.� So it is Manu and his “daughter� that repopulate the earth.

Buddhist
Buddhists have an elaborate flood story called Samudda-v�ṇija J�taka. In an Indian village, there lived 1000 families of dishonest carpenters. These carpenters would tell people that they could build anything from houses to chairs and would take the money and never deliver any goods or do any work. Because of this they were, not surprisingly despised in the village and quickly needed to find a new place to live.

They built a ship and sailed until they found a beautiful island. The island was populated by a man who had been shipwrecked. The man told them that food was plentiful, life on the island was comfortable, and the carpenters were welcome to stay. The only catch was that the island was haunted by spirits. The spirit’s only rule was that every time a human needed to defecate or urinate, they needed to dig a hole and cover it up when they were finished. The spirits wanted to keep their island clean and who can blame them.

The carpenters loved the island and decided to have a big party to celebrate their new home. However, they became drunk on fermented sugar cane and quickly ignored the rules and pretty much defecated and urinated all over the island. The spirits were furious and decided to flood the island with a giant wave, on the full moon...

China
One day a farmer managed to capture and imprison a thunder God. The farmer went into town but warned his children to stay far away from the caged deity. The children took pity on the thunder god and released him. In gratitude the God warned them there was going to be a great flood. He gave the children a (presumably very large) gourd and told them that they would be safe from the waters as long as they are inside the gourd.

The rains came, the brother and sister got inside the gourd. They were the only people to survive the flood...

Norse
The Norse flood story is starkly different from the others in that the world was flooded, but not with water. When Odin and his brothers Villi and Ve killed the giant Ymir, the blood that poured from his body flooded the earth. That’s right, the world was drowned in blood. In this literal bloodbath, a single frost giant named Bergelmir and his wife made an ark, were saved, and repopulated the earth.

Aborigines
The Aboriginal culture has a history rich in storytelling, and their flood story has a noticeable lack of the common elements. No angry deity and no ark. But the story is so entertaining that there are several children’s books about the frog who flooded the world.

Ojibwe/Chippewa Tribe
The story goes that the Great Spirit was unhappy with man and created a great flood. The only survivor was a man named Waynaboozhoo who had made a raft of logs and sticks for himself and other animals that were alive. They floated around for over a month, but the waters had not gone down. Waynaboozhoo decided that he was going to have to rebuild the earth, and he needed mud from the ‘old world’ buried deep underwater.

First, a loon tried, but the water was too deep. A beaver was also unsuccessful. While they were arguing about who would try next, a coon (small duck) named Aajigade said that he would try. All the animals told him to go away, that he was too small...
https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blo ... d-stories/

Civilizations have flood myths because civilizations tend to be found near water. To imagine that everyones grandpaw is telling the same story is not reality.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #45

Post by Zzyzx »

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Abdelrahman wrote: Check out my post 32. The Earth’s mantle may contain ¼ upto 4 times the amount of water in all the oceans on Earth. Given that the volume of water in the oceans is estimated at 1.35 billion cubic kilometers, I do not need to do the calculations. Just about 3 times the amount of water would be required – and it would sink back into the Earth.
The 'water' that so excites flood defenders actually refers to hydrogen and oxygen chemically bound to other elements in rock three or four hundred miles below the Earth surface.

Perhaps they envision that said oxygen and hydrogen broke out of chemical bonds and magically surfaced from that depth as liquid water to flood the surface then magically returned hundreds of miles and recombined in Ringwoodite.

Or perhaps they imagine / propose that magical rainfall from out of nowhere flooded the Earth then percolated downward (ignoring the massive temperature and pressure at depth) to magically disappear when no longer needed to 'explain' the flood myth.
Ringwoodite is a high-pressure phase of Mg2SiO4 (magnesium silicate) formed at high temperatures and pressures of the Earth's mantle between 525 and 660 km (326 and 410 mi) depth. It may also contain iron and hydrogen. It is polymorphous with the olivine phase forsterite (a magnesium iron silicate).
Ringwoodite is notable for being able to contain hydroxide ions (oxygen and hydrogen atoms bound together) within its structure. In this case two hydroxide ions usually take the place of a magnesium ion and two oxide ions.[4]

Combined with evidence of its occurrence deep in the Earth's mantle, this suggests that there is from one to three times the world ocean's equivalent of water in the mantle transition zone from 410 to 660 km deep.[5][6]
This mineral was first identified in the Tenham meteorite in 1969,[7] and is inferred to be present in large quantities in the Earth’s mantle.

Ringwoodite was named after the Australian earth scientist Ted Ringwood (1930–1993), who studied polymorphic phase transitions in the common mantle minerals olivine and pyroxene at pressures equivalent to depths as great as about 600 km.

Olivine, wadsleyite, and ringwoodite are polymorphs found in the upper mantle of the earth. At depths greater than about 660 km, other minerals, including some with the perovskite structure, are stable. The properties of these minerals determine many of the properties of the mantle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringwoodite
Again, floods are COMMON in lowlands, coastal areas, river valleys. That needs no explanation; and cultures having tales of great floods need no explanation.

However, tales of flood waters covering the whole Earth, wiping out all life save those on an 'Ark', DOES require abundant verifiable evidence – which is totally lacking. Imagination is insufficient.
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Post #46

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 43 by Abdelrahman]
There is not one myth on Earth as widely circulated as the Flood myth. And everyone says that the man whom restarted civilization is one of their peoples. To Muslims, this is true since Noah was everyones father. That’s why everyone recounts the same story everywhere. Name me one other myth as widely circulated. Comparative mythology lists only a few and none are as wide spread as the Flood myth.
Even today, great population centres are located close to the sea or other major water sources. Devastating floods and tsunamis are pretty regular occurrences. It's not surprising that ancient, ignorant people steeped in superstition attributed these events to their gods. What is surprising, however, is that if the Noachian flood is true then there should really be only one such story handed down, but there are many as you have also pointed out. As DrNoGods has illustrated, flood tales from different societies are quite diverse and far removed from the biblical account. One surely has to conclude that they are all just exaggerated folklore tales relating to their own personal experiences of major flood events, including the biblical flood story.
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Post #47

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 6 by Abdelrahman]
There may be examples of civilizations that don't regard their flood 'myth' as true and I am not aware of them, but I am aware of the many that believe it happened.
I would love you to show me any other culture that doesn't believe that its flood story is a children's story.

Even the Sumerians, the ones who invented the Flood story, did not believe it was anything other than a bed-time story.

Modern people spend so much time trying to convince people that it can't have happened, while people who can't understand it is impossible, look at the least thing, and say "hey it has rained, therefore the Flood might be true."

You say this is evidence the Flood happened.
Well perhaps, but there is irrefutable PROOF if did not.

Evidence, vs proof.
Evidence, vs proof.

Proof wins.

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