Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Abdelrahman
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Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #1

Post by Abdelrahman »

Peace be unto you all!

Is anyone here familiar with the modern evidence being discussed for Noah's flood? Specifically the work of Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock!

I highly encourage anyone with a basic understanding of environmental science or geology to watch their interviews with Joe Rogan on YOUTUBE. Mind blowing stuff they're discovering.

Graham Hancock studies ancient civilizations and shows us how the story of Noah's flood isn't exclusive to Abrahamic faiths but that many traditions across the world narrate a very similar story. I am not surprised to hear this sense it was a worldwide phenomenon. Randall Carlson gets into the geology, ice core samples, satellite images etc.. Its fascinating.

I challenge someone with a scientific background to watch one of their interviews and discuss the evidence here with me! Believers should rejoice at this evidence, I just wish more people were aware of their work!

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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #11

Post by Wootah »

Donray wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Abdelrahman]

Are you saying that this Joe is who you relies on for science?????

Joseph James Rogan is an American comedian and podcast host. He has also worked as a mixed martial arts color commentator, television host, and occasional actor.

Give us the link to this interview that will blow my mind and prove the god created flood.
No, I think he is offering a causal entry-level interview discussing the topic for those that are interested.

With our self-isolation from the covid-19 flood some of us have time to watch the videos.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Post #12

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 6 by Abdelrahman]
Why does this one 'myth' seem to cross so easily across cultures when other concepts are declined between people. Why is this a story so many were willing to accept?
Civilisations arose and flourished in close proximity to water. Catastrophic floods are a common occurrence across the globe. Just recall the recent devastating tsunami. It is not surprising that these events are embedded in the memories of different societies who attributed them to their gods and exaggerated them through retelling over the ages.
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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #13

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 7 by Abdelrahman]
Why do you state that?


Because this is the date the comes directly from biblical chronology, and it is crucial to the argument on whether or not Noah's flood actually happened as described in the Christian bible. You can't discuss the viability of the Noah's flood story and ignore this rough time frame (4300 years ago, give or take a few hundred). But many people who want to believe that it is a true story conveniently ignore this crucial dating point because when it is considered, the likelihood that it happened as described goes to zero.
Just watch the video and reference said science. I am looking to debate someone here on the science presented in their research!


What specific scientific points are you referring to? I have a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and spent the first 20 years of my career doing atmospheric science (I am a spectroscopist). So I have a science background and can understand the general scientific issues surrounding the Noah's flood story and why it is disproved by modern science.

Are you disputing the time frame in which this flood story is supposed to have occurred in? If so, then that is where this discussion on scientific feasibility should start because it is crucial to appreciate the implications of the entire Earth being covered with water to several meters above the highest mountains only 4300 years ago. If that had actually happened in that time frame, and just 8 humans and some sea-dwelling creatures were the only survivors apart from those on the ark (as the story tells), then it is impossible that we could have the distribution of life forms that we have today in the world (geographically, and from an evolutionary standpoint).

Explain why kangaroos only exist in Australia if the ark landed somewhere in the Middle East only ~4300 years ago. How did they get there from the ark and why did they choose Australia and not any other place between the landing point and Australia? That is just one example of thousands when it comes to the distribution of animals in the world today compared to 4300 years ago. It is an impossible story and science tells us it could not have happened as described in the bible, in the time frame that biblical chronology dictates.
Last edited by DrNoGods on Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #14

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 7 by Abdelrahman]
Why do you state that?
If you want a creationist's source:

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-time ... the-flood/

That is from 2012 so they would put the year of Noah's flood at 4367 years ago.
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Post #15

Post by Abdelrahman »

brunumb wrote:
Civilisations arose and flourished in close proximity to water. Catastrophic floods are a common occurrence across the globe. Just recall the recent devastating tsunami. It is not surprising that these events are embedded in the memories of different societies who attributed them to their gods and exaggerated them through retelling over the ages.
Yes record of a flood or Tsunami is one thing, but record of a boat carrying the survivors that restart cvilization...now thats alot more specific. Some of these cultures have never interacted with each other, and even if they did, why steal this one story but leave everything else? Its very specific to a group of survivors restarting civilization... highly recommend you look at the research! Even if you have a basic understanding of geology you should be fine.

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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #16

Post by Abdelrahman »

Wootah wrote:
I haven't watched the interviews or heard of the gentlemen. I do follow creation.com and I do think that there is ample evidence sufficient to maintain an open stance on there being a global flood.
Oh I didn't know that. I'll definitely check that out! Thanks for sharing.
Wootah wrote: I think the spiritual dimension just as fascinating.
Oh I am downright in awe of the spiritual dimension as well. We have many many many explanations regarding said dimension in Islam! And it gets real real deep. What fascinates you the most about the topic?
Wootah wrote: Have you seen any of Jordan Peterson's work? His biblical series discussed the flood from a psychological level as well. In a sense, we are all susceptible to a chaotic event, a cancer diagnosis, a job loss, a car crash, that can plunge our well ordered lives into the chaos of the flood.
I am not familiar! Didn't know Jordan Peterson had a biblical series. Sounds interesting. I am of the stance that the flood was real though and a sign from God.
Wootah wrote: It brought new meaning to the idea of Jesus walking on water, God's control of the elements and of chaos is immensely reassuring for me. We all plunge into the flood called death and some, who stand upon the rock, will rise.
Simple beautiful. True reliance on God is a beautiful thing. It releases man from the shackles of worry to do your part and depend on God, King of Kings. We have many references to dependence on God and its noble quality!

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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #17

Post by Abdelrahman »

DrNoGods wrote:
Because this is the date the comes directly from biblical chronology, and it is crucial to the argument on whether or not Noah's flood actually happened as described in the Christian bible. You can't discuss the viability of the Noah's flood story and ignore this rough time frame (4300 years ago, give or take a few hundred). But many people who want to believe that it is a true story conveniently ignore this crucial dating point because when it is considered, the likelihood that it happened as described goes to zero.
Haha brother I'm a Muslim. The Qur'an does not state that the world is 5,000 years old or anything of the such. I rely on science as to the dating of Earth.

We believe although Jesus (pbuh) came with a gospel, it is not the current day Bible which is only a record of said text and has been corrupted by time and man. Jesus (pbuh) came with one book not a collection of contradicting books written by different people. So the modern day Bible may contain some of the original Gospel, but much of it has been tampered with and that is why much contradiction exists in the Bible. Christians themselves will admit to changing the word of God, and do it all the time. They omit verses, remove verses that were interpolations, some versions go as far as removing homophobic verses and anti-Semitic verses. This would sound the RED ALERT in Islam, we don't touch God's word. We don't even consider the translation God's word but just a translation.
DrNoGods wrote: What specific scientific points are you referring to? I have a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and spent the first 20 years of my career doing atmospheric science (I am a spectroscopist). So I have a science background and can understand the general scientific issues surrounding the Noah's flood story and why it is disproved by modern science.
They discuss world oxygen levels measured from drilled ice core samples as being a measure for global temperature, and they produce two graphs. They theorize that a giant asteroid hit somewhere near the north pole during the last ice age, making everything melt and thus sea levels rise drastically. They even talk about the magnitude of explosion required from the asteroid and the evidence for an asteroid impact. Others theorize a solar flare as being what caused the melting but the source of water is described as being from the sudden melting of the polar ice cap.
DrNoGods wrote: Are you disputing the time frame in which this flood story is supposed to have occurred in? If so, then that is where this discussion on scientific feasibility should start because it is crucial to appreciate the implications of the entire Earth being covered with water to several meters above the highest mountains only 4300 years ago. If that had actually happened in that time frame, and just 8 humans and some sea-dwelling creatures were the only survivors apart from those on the ark (as the story tells), then it is impossible that we could have the distribution of life forms that we have today in the world (geographically, and from an evolutionary standpoint).
I think the time frame they gave was about 12,000-14,000 years ago for the flood.

A time that many large species went extinct. A huge reduction in the number of species is noticed in the fossil record and they discuss that data as well citing that modern theories state that the explanation given for why so many species went extinct at that time as being due to human hunting. Some species were wiped out in as little as one generation and your trying to tell me humans did that? The fossil discussion is very interesting.

Another cool point to note is that PLATO swore to the existence of Atlantis and says the city sank about the same time this data is alluding to.. about 12,000-14,000 years ago. Now Atlantis is not portrayed like in the movies, but it was known for its advanced agriculture etc.. Plato, who read about Atlantis, states that it sank... we all know the popular story. But it all coincides to that date.. about 12,000-14,000 years ago.

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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #18

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 17 by Abdelrahman]
Haha brother I'm a Muslim. The Qur'an does not state that the world is 5,000 years old or anything of the such. I rely on science as to the dating of Earth.


OK, but the Noah's flood story and people who support it as literal fact do believe that the universe is roughly 6000 years old and that this flood event occurred some 4300 years ago. So any efforts to support this particular flood myth as scientifically sound must consider these ages, and the story as described in the bible. If the Qur'an has a different flood myth then it would help if you would describe it so that it is clear which flood myth is being debated. And if you rely on science for the age of the Earth then I assume you are OK with 4.6 billion years, correct?
They theorize that a giant asteroid hit somewhere near the north pole during the last ice age, making everything melt and thus sea levels rise drastically. They even talk about the magnitude of explosion required from the asteroid and the evidence for an asteroid impact. Others theorize a solar flare as being what caused the melting but the source of water is described as being from the sudden melting of the polar ice cap.


In either case, there is not nearly enough water in ice caps or glaciers to create a global coverage of water high enough to reach the top of Mt. Everest. The volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi*r^3 with pi=3.141592... and r = radius of the sphere. The average radius of the Earth is 6367.5 km (6378 km at the equator and 6357 km at the poles). This gives a volume of a sphere flush with sea level of 1.081423e12 km^3. Mt Everest is 8.848 km high. A sphere with a radius of 6367.5 km + 8.848 km = 6376.35 km has a volume of 1.085937e12 km^3. The difference between these two spheres is the volume of water that would be needed to cover the Earth to the height of Mt. Everest (ignoring for now that the Earth is not a perfectly smooth surface at sea level). That volume is 4.5e9 km^3.

The volume of all surface ice on Earth is estimated to be 3.0e7 km^3. This is 151 times less than would be needed to cover the Earth to the height of Mt Everest. The equivalent sea level rise (SLR) if all the Earth's ice melted is only about 58m (which you can get by taking the height of Mt. Everest of 8,848 m and dividing by the 151 number above). The actual amount of water needed is a little less than this example because there are other mountains, raised sections at continents, etc. But the point is that if all the ice on Earth melted it would only raise sea level by roughly 60m ... not even remotely close to what would be needed to reach the height of Mt. Everest. I can provide references for the ice volumes if needed.
I think the time frame they gave was about 12,000-14,000 years ago for the flood.


Which flood? If it is Noah's flood, then the date is about 4,300 years ago. This is not adjustable and is given by biblical chronology.
A time that many large species went extinct. A huge reduction in the number of species is noticed in the fossil record and they discuss that data as well citing that modern theories state that the explanation given for why so many species went extinct at that time as being due to human hunting. Some species were wiped out in as little as one generation and your trying to tell me humans did that? The fossil discussion is very interesting.


You're saying that there was a large extinction event only 12,000 - 14,000 years ago? What event was that? The last mass extinction event was the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction about 66 million years ago. Is there some extinction event described in the Qur'an that happened only 12,000-14,000 years ago?
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #19

Post by Abdelrahman »

DrNoGods wrote:
OK, but the Noah's flood story and people who support it as literal fact do believe that the universe is roughly 6000 years old and that this flood event occurred some 4300 years ago. So any efforts to support this particular flood myth as scientifically sound must consider these ages, and the story as described in the bible. If the Qur'an has a different flood myth then it would help if you would describe it so that it is clear which flood myth is being debated. And if you rely on science for the age of the Earth then I assume you are OK with 4.6 billion years, correct?
I do not speak for Christians! Maybe a fellow brother in Christianity can tell us why they still believe in such a record as stated in the Bible. Muslims are not given a date for Noah's flood, nor does the Qur'an contain contradicting genealogies and does not list the Earth at 5,000 years old. Muslims also believe in the story of Noah (pbuh) a great Prophet of God. We are told of Noah:

“Warn your people before there comes upon them a grievous penalty.� — Holy Qur’an [57:61]

“I have come to you with a clear warning that you worship none but God. Verily I fear for you the penalty of a grievous day.� — Holy Qur’an [11:25-26]

“We see nothing special in you except as a man like ourselves. Nor do we see any who have followed you but those who are the meanest amongst us and immature in judgment. Nor do we see in you any excellence over us; in fact we think you are a liar.� — Holy Qur’an [11:27]

“He is no more than a man like yourselves. His wish is to assert superiority over you. If God had wished (to send messengers), He could have sent down Angels. Never did we hear such a thing (as he says), among our ancestors of old.� — Holy Qur’an [23:24]

“O Noah! Indeed you have disputed with us and you have prolonged the dispute: now bring upon us what you have threatened us with, if you are of the Truthful Ones.� — Holy Qur’an [11:32]

There are many more verses describing Noah's story and how people ridiculed him. The Quranic description is very similar to our Judeo-Christian bretherin.

And yes, 4.5/4.6 billion years sounds perfectly fine :)
DrNoGods wrote: In either case, there is not nearly enough water in ice caps or glaciers to create a global coverage of water high enough to reach the top of Mt. Everest. The volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi*r^3 with pi=3.141592... and r = radius of the sphere. The average radius of the Earth is 6367.5 km (6378 km at the equator and 6357 km at the poles). This gives a volume of a sphere flush with sea level of 1.081423e12 km^3. Mt Everest is 8.848 km high. A sphere with a radius of 6367.5 km + 8.848 km = 6376.35 km has a volume of 1.085937e12 km^3. The difference between these two spheres is the volume of water that would be needed to cover the Earth to the height of Mt. Everest (ignoring for now that the Earth is not a perfectly smooth surface at sea level). That volume is 4.5e9 km^3.
Alright.. no problem so far.
DrNoGods wrote:
The volume of all surface ice on Earth is estimated to be 3.0e7 km^3.
Surface ice? Thats interesting. You must note however, that their research states that the asteroid strikes Earth during the Ice Age a period of time when there would be a substantially greater amount of surface Ice. The Qur'an also stipulates that water gushed forth from the Earth.
DrNoGods wrote:
This is 151 times less than would be needed to cover the Earth to the height of Mt Everest. The equivalent sea level rise (SLR) if all the Earth's ice melted is only about 58m (which you can get by taking the height of Mt. Everest of 8,848 m and dividing by the 151 number above).
I found research online that suggested that if just the ice of Greenland and Antartica had melted sea levels would rise 68 m. So imagine an ice age where 30% of Earth is covered in ice. I don't know. There's so many factors to consider and they actually go over some of the numbers in their interview.
DrNoGods wrote:
Which flood? If it is Noah's flood, then the date is about 4,300 years ago. This is not adjustable and is given by biblical chronology.
Just want to emphasize again that Muslims do not believe the Bible to be the word of God.
DrNoGods wrote:
You're saying that there was a large extinction event only 12,000 - 14,000 years ago? What event was that? The last mass extinction event was the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction about 66 million years ago. Is there some extinction event described in the Qur'an that happened only 12,000-14,000 years ago?
Here are some articles referencing what I'm talking about and what Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock go over in their research.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/18/scie ... rming.html

https://www.livescience.com/51793-extin ... fauna.html

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Re: Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

Post #20

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 19 by Abdelrahman]
Maybe a fellow brother in Christianity can tell us why they still believe in such a record as stated in the Bible.


Probably for the exact same reason you believe things written in the Qur'an are valid ... you think it is a holy book just as Christians believe their bible is a holy book. Both of these books were written by men and modern science can show that many of the stories are simply myth and allegory, such as the Noah's flood story. There simply was not enough water available to cover the highest mountains, among many other facts that show it is false.
You must note however, that their research states that the asteroid strikes Earth during the Ice Age a period of time when there would be a substantially greater amount of surface Ice. The Qur'an also stipulates that water gushed forth from the Earth.


This makes no difference. When more ice was gathered at the poles during ice ages, sea level was correspondingly much lower. So whether this imaginary asteroid struck during an ice age and melted all the ice present at the time, or whether it hit today and melted less ice, the net result would be similar. Go and look up what sea levels were during the last ice age, and compare it to sea levels today. It makes no difference ... if all the ice were melted the rise in sea level would be around 60m ... not anywhere close to the amount required by Noah's flood no matter which book of fiction describes it (Qur'an, or Bible).
I found research online that suggested that if just the ice of Greenland and Antartica had melted sea levels would rise 68 m. So imagine an ice age where 30% of Earth is covered in ice. I don't know. There's so many factors to consider and they actually go over some of the numbers in their interview.


Again, same problem. Where there was an ice age, or not, has no bearing on the net amount of water that is available when it is all melted. Sea levels are lower during ice ages, and rise as more ice melts.
Here are some articles referencing what I'm talking about and what Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock go over in their research.


Carlson and Graham provide no credible evidence for the feasibility of Noah's flood. Everything is speculation and hand waving, and there is nothing special about 12,000 - 14,000 years ago (there was no mass extinction event at that time). The title of your OP is "Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!", but if your only support for that is what Carlson and Graham produce then you need to keep looking.

I haven't read the Qur'an, or the Book or Mormon, or any similar man-made holy books other than the Bible, but the time frame that Noah lived cannot be arbitrarily chosen to suit an argument. If the Qur'an puts his existence at 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, then that is wildly different from the biblical chronology that puts him at around 4300 years ago. In any case, it is not possible in either of those two time frames for a natural event to have produced enough water to cover the earth to a height several meters above the highest mountains. Whether an ice age was present, or not, has no bearing on that simple fact. You'd be better off just claiming that the imaginary god you believe in (Allah I assume) caused such an event because of his unlimited powers and leave it at that. There is no need to try and pretend that such an event is compatible with science. If you're postulating the existence of something as exotic as an all powerful god, simply claim it can do anything and you have a ready explanation for anything you want to imagine.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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