Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!

[Abdelrahman]

Peace be unto you all!

Is anyone here familiar with the modern evidence being discussed for Noah's flood? Specifically the work of Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock!

I highly encourage anyone with a basic understanding of environmental science or geology to watch their interviews with Joe Rogan on YOUTUBE. Mind blowing stuff they're discovering.

Graham Hancock studies ancient civilizations and shows us how the story of Noah's flood isn't exclusive to Abrahamic faiths but that many traditions across the world narrate a very similar story. I am not surprised to hear this sense it was a worldwide phenomenon. Randall Carlson gets into the geology, ice core samples, satellite images etc.. Its fascinating.

I challenge someone with a scientific background to watch one of their interviews and discuss the evidence here with me! Believers should rejoice at this evidence, I just wish more people were aware of their work!

[Purple Knight]

And given geologic time and the slowness of mountain formation on those time scales, we can be pretty sure that the tallest mountain in the mythical Noah's time was similar to today. There simply is no source for that much extra water.

No, there's not. I'm only pointing out that no matter how implausible, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how far-fetched,



(no, not you)

...the story is, all the land being covered by water is technically possible through water displacement and catastrophic geological mountain-leveling.

I appreciate you arguing the point, but there's a back half of the question: where does the water go afterwards? Do massive rifts open up to swallow the water? Is there huge tectonic shifts to reconfigure mountain ranges and continents? For the water to recede in short order we'd have yet another cataclysmic event.

Yes, you'd have to have more cataclysms in short order. It's flat ridiculous. So far afield of plausible it's broken orbit.

But technically possible?

...Yes.

The thing I think disproves the story of a global flood outright is the evolution of freshwater fish. They'd have all died. There'd be no more.

[Abdelrahman]

Probably for the exact same reason you believe things written in the Qur'an are valid ... you think it is a holy book just as Christians believe their bible is a holy book. Both of these books were written by men and modern science can show that many of the stories are simply myth and allegory, such as the Noah's flood story. There simply was not enough water available to cover the highest mountains, among many other facts that show it is false.

What I meant by maybe a Christian brethren can explain to us their perspective on where all this water could have come from.

Sorry everyone for the super late reply. I’ll try my best to address everyone’s claims here starting with DrNoGods! I had to do some deep research as you all brought up some great points. I want to remind everyone that these views on Noah’s flood are my PERSONAL views and do not reflect necessarily reflect what Islam teaches. There are many Muslims that believe Noah’s flood to be localized and not global and many that believe it wiped out civilizations - I am of the latter. The Qur'an doesn't negate either hypothesis.

Now in the Bible it may say that the water reached the mountain tops, and although it does not specifically say so in the Qur’an, it would not be right to say that Muslims believe this as well. BUT for the sake of defending my Christian brethren I will give this my best shot. As we have in the Qur’an that one of Noah’s sons tried to save himself from the flood by swimming to a mountain, but Noah calls out that there is no safe place from God’s decree today, and his son drowns. So I have no problem defending this theological point of view.

This makes no difference. When more ice was gathered at the poles during ice ages, sea level was correspondingly much lower. So whether this imaginary asteroid struck during an ice age and melted all the ice present at the time, or whether it hit today and melted less ice, the net result would be similar. Go and look up what sea levels were during the last ice age, and compare it to sea levels today. It makes no difference ... if all the ice were melted the rise in sea level would be around 60m ... not anywhere close to the amount required by Noah's flood no matter which book of fiction describes it (Qur'an, or Bible).

This was such a good point. Well done. You are totally correct. So this got me thinking, and I went and re-looked at what the Qur’an actually said about the water source for the flood, in detail. Here is what I found:

"So We opened the gates of heaven with torrential water and made the earth burst forth with gushing springs. And the waters met together in a way which was decreed. We bore him on a planked and well-caulked ship." - The Holy Qur'an [54:11-13]

"O Earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain).’ The water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of God) was fulfilled (the destruction of the people of Noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: ‘Away with the people who are wrongdoing." - The Holy Qur'an [11:44]

The Qur’an does not say that the water came from melting ice, however, I personally believe the Younger Dryas Impact that Graham and Randall talk about (the imaginary asteroid you’re talking about which is now fact accepted by the scientific community) to possibly have played a part. This is due to the combined evidence of the fact that civilizations existed at the time (not before thought of) that got erased from history –supporting Noah’s flood story.

Doing more research on the matter I amazingly discovered the following:

From islamreligion.com, the author states:

“Then the earth’s interior moved in unusual ways, and the bottom of the oceans rose in sudden bursts causing waves to flood the earth.�

So this idea of the water coming from within Earth as well as the sky keeps getting repeated. The fact that we know that one of the sources of the water was rain water, this makes me ask, was it raining globally? We know that if all the water in the atmosphere were to condense the amount of water covering the Earth would only be one inch, so was it raining globally? Or raining in some areas more than others creating flood zones? Something I need to research more.

Another source of water is the gushing forth of springs. And so I went unto to study the deep water cycle – the water cycle responsible for water found in the mantle that surfaces to Earth’s exterior. I discovered several very interesting articles:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-hunt ... -20180711/

New evidence surmounting that the mantle contains more water than previously thought. And if you think the water cannot reach the surface, it does, just like the lava that surfaces through volcanoes. This research is still in its infancy but researchers claim that the mantle can contain from ¼ to 4 times the amount of water of all the oceans of Earth! Given that the total volume of water in the oceans is estimated at 1.35 billion cubic kilometers, I do not need to do the calculations for you. A global coverage up to the height of Everest would have been achieved with just 3 times the amount of water.

The idea of springs gushing out of the Earth and filling the Earth with water is not new to Islam. Another famous story is narrated of Abraham’s (pbuh) wife Hajar (pbuh) who when running between the hills of Safa and Marwah looking for water, God miraculously sent the Angel Gabriel (the holy spirit) to cause a spring to burth forth out from under her feet. We are told that the water coming forth from such a spring would have been so much that if Hajar had not contained the water into a well, we are told it would have covered the entire Earth. The well, now called ZamZam, is very famous in Saudi Arabia and exists in Mecca to this day right next to the Holy Ka'bbah (big black cube everyone recognizes in the Muslim world). I've personally drank from it and it definitely tastes different to any water I've tasted before. Some people have studied the water and found that it contains upto double the total dissolved solids of normal drinking water which could explain the flavour I experienced. The name ZamZam comes from the word Zomë Zomë which means “stop flowing� what we believe Hajar kept saying when trying to contain the water source. This is a well that has never run out of water in the middle of the Saudi desert right next to the Holy Ka'bbah.

So I had to clear up what Islam teaches us compared to what I personally believe. I will be studying the Younger Dryas Impact some more to see if my personal view can resonate some more with the Qur’anic description. I’m particularly fond of the fossil record, the extinction of many species of mega fauna and human tribes like the Clovis tribe that mysteriously disappeared.

Carlson and Graham provide no credible evidence for the feasibility of Noah's flood. Everything is speculation and hand waving, and there is nothing special about 12,000 - 14,000 years ago (there was no mass extinction event at that time). The title of your OP is "Evidence for Noah's Flood! Finally!", but if your only support for that is what Carlson and Graham produce then you need to keep looking.

Here is the mass extinction event they reference, and yes it did happen:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 110314.htm

I haven't read the Qur'an, or the Book or Mormon, or any similar man-made holy books other than the Bible, but the time frame that Noah lived cannot be arbitrarily chosen to suit an argument. If the Qur'an puts his existence at 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, then that is wildly different from the biblical chronology that puts him at around 4300 years ago. In any case, it is not possible in either of those two time frames for a natural event to have produced enough water to cover the earth to a height several meters above the highest mountains. Whether an ice age was present, or not, has no bearing on that simple fact. You'd be better off just claiming that the imaginary god you believe in (Allah I assume) caused such an event because of his unlimited powers and leave it at that. There is no need to try and pretend that such an event is compatible with science. If you're postulating the existence of something as exotic as an all powerful god, simply claim it can do anything and you have a ready explanation for anything you want to imagine.

[/quote]

Again I must be clear, the Qur'an DOES NOT put Noah's flood at 12,000 to 14,000 years ago. I am. These are my personal views and I defended my Christian brethren's faith in such a flood reaching even Everest. You said that no amount of water on Earth exists to have fulfilled such a requirement and with further studying of what the Qur'an actually says I discover that the two water sources WE ARE told about are:

1) Rain water - possibly indicating localized flooding in certain areas more than others?
2) Springs - I've references research that states that the water below the crust can be upto 4 times the total amount of water of all the oceans of the Earth. Clearly being enough water.

Now obviously, the existence of this amount of water does not prove the flood happened. Cause how would all this water have escaped? This is the miracle we believe in. That God made the Earth shift and change to release springs to flood the Earth and that is the miracle we believe in. The evidence of the flood lies in very large boulders being deposited several miles away from their origin. We find fossils of species that went completely extinct in one generation. We have studies done on ancient civilizations indicating a older than thought date for how civilized ancient people's really were in certain parts of the world. We see massive 'shorelines' that indicate a massive flood that would have created such lines on the surface of mountains and the such.

We have Plato’s writing’s describing Atlantis as a real city which sank around the same time researchers state such an impact occurred (12,800 years ago exactly). We have Graham Hancock’s work on ancient civilizations indicating an end around the same time. We have fossils preserved of mammoths whose bodies were literally ripped off their legs and displaced a couple of meters apart from their legs still embedded upright in the mud – theorized to have only been caused by massive waves that overtook the world.

What’s interesting to note, is that when Graham Hancock and Randal Carlson did their interviews on the Younger Dryas Impact no one had heard about it before except geologists familiar with the research.2 years later the Younger Dryas Impact is now widely accepted by the scientific community:

https://www.realclearscience.com/articl ... 11143.html

So before being so quick to judge them as ‘charlatans’ why don’t you watch their interviews. I will be coming back here with more of their evidence. Such an impact is theorized to have been from an asteroid more than 4 kilometers in diameter creating a massive nuclear explosion that would have been witnessed around the world and would have covered the Earth in smog.

Interesting to note as well that we believe Noah’s people to have lived in Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq). When studying ancient Sumerian kings and their artifacts, German archeologist, Werner Keller had to say about said excavations:

“The emergence of a city under a clayey layer during the archeological excavations in Mesopotamia proved that there was a flood in the region.�

Leonard Woolley said:

“Such mass of clay that had been formed in a single time period can only be the result of a great flood calamity. This can only be the remaining of the legendary Noah’s flood.�

Again guys, the Younger Dryas Impact having something to do with the great flood is my personal view and not the view represented in the Qur’an. And sorry for the late reply, I will never walk away from a debate and I hope I defended my Christian brethren’s views properly.

Trust me, I will keep researching this topic and I will keep posting my findings here. I will keep defending my Christian brethren's faith in such an event as I believe the same thing personally. I will re-watch the interview and bring the evidence here since no one is willing to watch it for themselves. I learned a lot from the interview it was very interesting! Highly recommend!

[Abdelrahman]

THe 'science' you are referencing is from self proclaimed experts, who do not have the proper scientific background. How about presenting some of the evidence here, and discussing it from a scientific point of view, rather than reference books that would have to be bought, podcasts that are vague, etc etc.

Rather than put up people who have all the earmarks of being charlatans, can you bring forward and discuss the actual evidence and points?

These 'Charlatans' spoke of the Younger Dryas Impact 2 years before the scientific community has accepted it as a major hypothesis for what occured 12,800 years ago. More and more evidence surmounts everyday that such an impact occured. Check out my reply to DrNoGods! I've referenced some articles there and a quick google search of the Younger Dryas Impact would explain everything.

[Abdelrahman]

There is several problems with that speculation. 1) No evidence for it. 2) No actual phsycal model that shows it could be possible 3) no place for the 'water' to go. 4) The disruption to the techtonic plates that would be required would rip the crust apart.

1) Don't worry, I'll be posting their work here in due time. I need to re-watch their interview and find the evidence they brought forth online.

2) I explain in my response to DrNoGods that the Qur'an dictates that the water came from springs and from rain water. When we study how much water is contained under the Earth's crust as well as the fact that the raining could have been localized - it is not far fetched to propose that such a model worked.

3) The Qur'an answers this by saying that the Earth swallowed up the water that it expelled out. So it's underground. Totally plausible given that it it theorized up to 4 times all the oceans waters is contained under out crust.

“O Earth! Swallow up your water, and O sky! Withhold (your rain).’ The water was diminished (made to subside) and the Decree (of God) was fulfilled (the destruction of the people of Noah). And it (the ship) rested on Mount Judi, and it was said: ‘Away with the people who are wrongdoing.� - The Holy Qur'an [11:44]

4) And a ripping of the crust would allow more water to emerge from its depths. Surely this amount of water would not completely destory the crust. The crust is up to 35 kilometers thick under the continents and only 8 kilometers thick under the oceans. So 8 km of water above the ground would not destroy a 35 km thick crust. Water may have definitely gushed forth from below, and Eearthquakes could have occured. The Younger Dryas Impact was from an asteroid about 4 km in diameter -- it would have caused a massive several megaton nuclear explosion that could have definitely rocked the Earth.

Again these are my own views!

[Gracchus]

[Replying to post 15 by Abdelrahman]
Until very recently the inhabitants of the Tigris-Euphrates delta would wait out the annual floods on reed boats along with their livestock.
Add some old grampaw entertaining the bored children with a few "stretchers" and you end up after a few generations with "holy scripture".

[Renon89]

The global flood did occur. Trying to render it symbolic is like trying to say Jesus did not feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes which He multiplied. The science aspect is like saying Jesus did not raise the dead or heal a number of people. In contemporary miracles, the Catholic Church contacts everyone involved to investigate what happened. From a science point of view, it cannot be explained. That's all.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 36 by Renon89]

The global flood did occur.

When did this occur? We know it could not possibly have occurred at the time suggested by biblical chronology (ie. about 4,300 years ago), so I'd be interested to know when you think such a thing did occur, and how?

Trying to render it symbolic is like trying to say Jesus did not feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes which He multiplied.

And why do you think this story is true? Why was it not documented when it supposedly happened, but only decades after his death by people who were not there (like all supposed miracles executed by Jesus)? Far more likely that it is a myth.

The science aspect is like saying Jesus did not raise the dead or heal a number of people.

Again, what evidence is there for this actually happening? Why was it not documented when it happened but only decades later? More myth and storytelling.

From a science point of view, it cannot be explained. That's all.

That's convenient, but it doesn't leave any room to debate the issues. Saying something "cannot be explained" by science shuts the door on any scientific debate as to whether or not it could have happened within the context of how we understand the natural world scientifically.

When things positively violate the laws of physics, biology etc. (such as a human being dying and then coming back to life) then we have to accept that they did not happen and are only myth or allegory. No global flood has occurred, as described in the bible, at any time since humans have occupied this planet (or their bipedal great ape ancestors). This we know with certainty.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 36 by Renon89]

From a science point of view, it cannot be explained. That's all.

Throughout human history there have been events and phenomena that were unexplained. In the past, anything that was unexplained naturally was attributed to the gods. Over time when humans have found actual explanations for those phenomena, they have never involved gods of any kind. I think we can safely say that any mysterious events and phenomena that people currently want to attribute to miracles and gods will eventually go the same way.

[Renon89]

From the Catholic perspective, miracles that occur in the present cannot be explained by science or experts. A requirement for sainthood is miracles attributed to the saint candidate. God, not the saint, performs the miracle. The Church then calls in experts and witnesses like doctors who offer the necessary information, including the conclusion that the miracle cannot be explained.

God gave Noah very specific instructions about the construction of the ark, including the use of pitch and a particular wood (gopher wood). Scale model replicas have been found to be seaworthy. Aside from rain, the Bible tells us "all the fountains of the great deep burst forth" Genesis 7:11

[Elijah John]

The global flood did occur. Trying to render it symbolic is like trying to say Jesus did not feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes which He multiplied. The science aspect is like saying Jesus did not raise the dead or heal a number of people. In contemporary miracles, the Catholic Church contacts everyone involved to investigate what happened. From a science point of view, it cannot be explained. That's all.

Moderator Comment

Instead of simply making unsubstantiated claims, provide what you consider scientific support for your point of view. That is basically what the OP is calling for, that's what this particular forum calls for.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.