Realization leads to God

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Realization leads to God

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I would like to introduce the concept of realization. Realization is the way to true knowledge. To realize means that you become aware of something that was always there. This is what I practice.

In the West, the theory for gaining knowledge is that it must be learned. On a very basic level I agree. However, you will not see the big picture. Besides that, you are wasting a lot of time and energy.

What many scientists do not understand is that we exist in consciousness. All knowledge is contained in it since we can not experience anything outside of it. You then ask, if we all possess consciousness, then why don't we know everything? Why do we learn as if things exist outside of our awareness? The problem is the mind and senses. They are limited. They create the illusion of something "out there". If you follow the full implications of what I am saying, then there is nothing out there to learn. That means it's already in you waiting to be "realized". Intuition is a form of realization and scientists already accept this! It is knowledge that comes to you without learning.

Where does God come in? It comes from you realizing that you are omniscient, and everything exist in you.

Is intuition a product of realization or learning?

Please offer me a scientific reason for relying on learning over intuition.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #51

Post by EarthScienceguy »

Your theory has a lot of problems:

1. You are not omniscient that is very demestraitivley falsafiable. You do not know what I did yesterday or the day before that.
2. If you are trying to say that the universe is everyone and everyone in the universe, then there is no creator or mechanism for creation. So then that would mean that we do not exist because there would be no energy to create the universe.
3. If you say that the energy for the universe existed before the universe, then what intelligence guided the universe to create the universe we know and love?
4. If you say we all created the universe, then you are surrendering your free will and this universe is nothing more than a Boltzmann brain and we are nothing more than random energy or energy that is being controlled by the collective sort of like the borg.

Observation tells us that we are all individuals, on a planet, that is circling a yellow star. As individuals, we can choose our own course of action, with the limited knowledge that we have to work at to acquire. Knowledge does not come from meditation but from studying the things that men have done before.

We can even perform a little experiment and test this theory. You can sit and meditate on a subject and I will read a book on the same subject and we can then evaluate who attained the greater knowledge of the subject. I think we all know what the outcome of that experiment would be.

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Re: Realization leads to God

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Dimmesdale wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:18 pm You are right that experience requires subject and object. That doesn't mean they are each the same thing. You need both sides, you need duality.
Ashtavakra Samhita, Chapter 2, Verse 16
Oh, the duality is the root cause of sorrow. For that there is no better remedy except the realization that all that is seen is unreal, and that I am the one, pure, blissful consciousness.

I go back to Immanuel Kant. There is the noumenal world and the phenomenal world. What many have not mastered is how to experience reality as it is. When you experience reality with your senses, you are not perceiving it as it is. You are perceiving through filters of your brain and senses. When you are able to perceive in a pure conscious state, without mind, body, and senses, then you can become one with anything and have a direct experience of it.

In my experience, I've come to the realization that everything exist in consciousness. The objects that you perceive as separate are all manifestations of consciousness. Eastern thinkers have spent centuries exploring the noumenal realm while Western scientists are still stuck at the phenomenal realm.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #53

Post by William »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm

1. You are not omniscient that is very demestraitivley falsafiable. You do not know what I did yesterday or the day before that.
2. If you are trying to say that the universe is everyone and everyone in the universe, then there is no creator or mechanism for creation. So then that would mean that we do not exist because there would be no energy to create the universe.
3. If you say that the energy for the universe existed before the universe, then what intelligence guided the universe to create the universe we know and love?
4. If you say we all created the universe, then you are surrendering your free will and this universe is nothing more than a Boltzmann brain and we are nothing more than random energy or energy that is being controlled by the collective sort of like the borg.

Observation tells us that we are all individuals, on a planet, that is circling a yellow star. As individuals, we can choose our own course of action, with the limited knowledge that we have to work at to acquire. Knowledge does not come from meditation but from studying the things that men have done before.

We can even perform a little experiment and test this theory. You can sit and meditate on a subject and I will read a book on the same subject and we can then evaluate who attained the greater knowledge of the subject. I think we all know what the outcome of that experiment would be.
I think the problem with dualistic thinking is in separating the apparent separate "things" as not being part of a whole "thing". If one can understand how "Things" can appear separate from the overall "Thing", but are not really, it is in the 'not really' that the illusion is seen for what it really is.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #54

Post by Dimmesdale »

Swami wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:00 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:18 pm You are right that experience requires subject and object. That doesn't mean they are each the same thing. You need both sides, you need duality.
Ashtavakra Samhita, Chapter 2, Verse 16
Oh, the duality is the root cause of sorrow. For that there is no better remedy except the realization that all that is seen is unreal, and that I am the one, pure, blissful consciousness.

I go back to Immanuel Kant. There is the noumenal world and the phenomenal world. What many have not mastered is how to experience reality as it is. When you experience reality with your senses, you are not perceiving it as it is. You are perceiving through filters of your brain and senses. When you are able to perceive in a pure conscious state, without mind, body, and senses, then you can become one with anything and have a direct experience of it.

In my experience, I've come to the realization that everything exist in consciousness. The objects that you perceive as separate are all manifestations of consciousness. Eastern thinkers have spent centuries exploring the noumenal realm while Western scientists are still stuck at the phenomenal realm.
I believe in both duality and non-duality. I do not doubt that a noumenal realm exists. But I believe in order to be completely non-dual you need to integrate both oneness and multiplicity. They are paradoxically united. Two sides of one coin. To say everything is "one" with no qualification is not only inaccurate but lazy and uninspired.

That's my p.o.v.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Realization leads to God

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Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to William in post #54]
I think the problem with dualistic thinking is in separating the apparent separate "things" as not being part of a whole "thing". If one can understand how "Things" can appear separate from the overall "Thing", but are not really, it is in the 'not really' that the illusion is seen for what it really is.
You did not address any of the issues raised.

If the universe is all and all is the universe then what was there before the universe existed?

If the universe is all and all is the universe then nothing has to be real. Everything is an illusion. Which would make some cosmologist happy because they are really having a tough time figuring out the "dualisitic" universe. So are you explaining the universe as an illusionary construct?

What are you trying to say the universe is?

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #56

Post by William »

EarthScienceguy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:46 am [Replying to William in post #54]

I think the problem with dualistic thinking is in separating the apparent separate "things" as not being part of a whole "thing". If one can understand how "Things" can appear separate from the overall "Thing", but are not really, it is in the 'not really' that the illusion is seen for what it really is.
You did not address any of the issues raised.
Or did I and you didn't understand it...
If the universe is all and all is the universe then what was there before the universe existed?


IF that were the case [and we do not know so cannot say for sure] then one cannot say that there was a 'before the universe' as the universe would have always existed.
If the universe is all and all is the universe then nothing has to be real. Everything is an illusion. Which would make some cosmologist happy because they are really having a tough time figuring out the "dualisitic" universe. So are you explaining the universe as an illusionary construct?
I think of the [physical] universe we currently exist within as something of a holographic simulated virtual reality which is being experience by consciousness [Spirit]
What are you trying to say the universe is?
Essentially the universe is a construct in The Creators mind. Imagination. But because it is The Creators Mind, it can be experienced as 'real' and that experience can [and is] awesome, which reflects back on the nature of The Creator. [See this post for more info on that idea.]

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Re: Realization leads to God

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Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to William in post #57]
Essentially the universe is a construct in The Creators mind. Imagination. But because it is The Creators Mind, it can be experienced as 'real' and that experience can [and is] awesome, which reflects back on the nature of The Creator
1. What is the nature of the creator?
2. Why did he create these thoughts in his mind?
3. What is the purpose of our existence? Creators are the ones that determine the purpose of what they create.

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Re: Realization leads to God

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EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm Your theory has a lot of problems:

1. You are not omniscient that is very demestraitivley falsafiable. You do not know what I did yesterday or the day before that.
In my worldview, there is a way to know.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm2. If you are trying to say that the universe is everyone and everyone in the universe, then there is no creator or mechanism for creation. So then that would mean that we do not exist because there would be no energy to create the universe.
3. If you say that the energy for the universe existed before the universe, then what intelligence guided the universe to create the universe we know and love?
4. If you say we all created the universe, then you are surrendering your free will and this universe is nothing more than a Boltzmann brain and we are nothing more than random energy or energy that is being controlled by the collective sort of like the borg.
EarthScienceGuy,
You are engaging in a fundamental error. The answers to the origin and nature of the Universe can not be found by looking "out there". The answers lie within. Exploring the nature of consciousness led me to the very nature of reality.

You've asked me about how the Universe was created, but I ask you how was consciousness created. Did it exist before the physical Universe?

If you can not answer these questions, then you are not ready to know about the origin and nature of the Universe.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm Observation tells us that we are all individuals, on a planet, that is circling a yellow star. As individuals, we can choose our own course of action, with the limited knowledge that we have to work at to acquire. Knowledge does not come from meditation but from studying the things that men have done before.
If science has the answers then why haven't they discovered the origin and nature of consciousness? I have discovered those answers using meditation.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pmWe can even perform a little experiment and test this theory. You can sit and meditate on a subject and I will read a book on the same subject and we can then evaluate who attained the greater knowledge of the subject. I think we all know what the outcome of that experiment would be.
So you want others to prove it to you or for you. Why not do the field research yourself and develop your meditation.

"…the Venerable One meditated on himself for twelve years.

During the thirteenth year, in the second month of summer, in the fourth fortnight, the light (fortnight) of Vaisâkha, on its tenth day, when the shadow had turned towards the east and the first wake was over, on the day called Suvrata, in the Muhûrta called Vigaya, outside of the town Grimbhikagrâma on the bank of the river Rigupâlika, not far from an old temple, in the field of the householder Sâmâga 1, under a Sal tree, when the moon was in conjunction with the asterism Uttaraphalgunî, (the Venerable One) in a squatting position with joined heels, exposing himself to the heat of the sun, after fasting two and a half days without drinking water, being engaged in deep meditation, reached the highest knowledge and intuition, called Kevala, which is infinite, supreme, unobstructed, unimpeded, complete, and full. (120) 2

When the Venerable Ascetic Mahâvîra had become a Gina and Arhat, he was a Kevalin, omniscient and comprehending all objects; he knew and saw all conditions of the world, of gods, (p. 264)
men, and demons: whence they come, whither they go, whether they are born as men or animals (kyavana) or become gods or hell-beings (upapâda), the ideas, the thoughts of their minds, the food, doings, desires, the open and secret deeds of all the living beings in the whole world; he the Arhat, for whom there is no secret, knew and saw all conditions of all living beings in the world, what they thought, spoke, or did at any moment.
(121) 1"
https://www.sacred-texts.com/jai/sbe22/sbe2285.htm
Jaina Sutras, Part II (SBE22), tr. by Hermann Jacobi, [1884]

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #59

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Swami wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:34 pm
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm Your theory has a lot of problems:

1. You are not omniscient that is very demestraitivley falsafiable. You do not know what I did yesterday or the day before that.
In my worldview, there is a way to know.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm2. If you are trying to say that the universe is everyone and everyone in the universe, then there is no creator or mechanism for creation. So then that would mean that we do not exist because there would be no energy to create the universe.
3. If you say that the energy for the universe existed before the universe, then what intelligence guided the universe to create the universe we know and love?
4. If you say we all created the universe, then you are surrendering your free will and this universe is nothing more than a Boltzmann brain and we are nothing more than random energy or energy that is being controlled by the collective sort of like the borg.
EarthScienceGuy,
You are engaging in a fundamental error. The answers to the origin and nature of the Universe can not be found by looking "out there". The answers lie within. Exploring the nature of consciousness led me to the very nature of reality.

You've asked me about how the Universe was created, but I ask you how was consciousness created. Did it exist before the physical Universe?

If you can not answer these questions, then you are not ready to know about the origin and nature of the Universe.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pm Observation tells us that we are all individuals, on a planet, that is circling a yellow star. As individuals, we can choose our own course of action, with the limited knowledge that we have to work at to acquire. Knowledge does not come from meditation but from studying the things that men have done before.
If science has the answers then why haven't they discovered the origin and nature of consciousness? I have discovered those answers using meditation.
EarthScienceguy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:06 pmWe can even perform a little experiment and test this theory. You can sit and meditate on a subject and I will read a book on the same subject and we can then evaluate who attained the greater knowledge of the subject. I think we all know what the outcome of that experiment would be.
So you want others to prove it to you or for you. Why not do the field research yourself and develop your meditation.

"…the Venerable One meditated on himself for twelve years.

During the thirteenth year, in the second month of summer, in the fourth fortnight, the light (fortnight) of Vaisâkha, on its tenth day, when the shadow had turned towards the east and the first wake was over, on the day called Suvrata, in the Muhûrta called Vigaya, outside of the town Grimbhikagrâma on the bank of the river Rigupâlika, not far from an old temple, in the field of the householder Sâmâga 1, under a Sal tree, when the moon was in conjunction with the asterism Uttaraphalgunî, (the Venerable One) in a squatting position with joined heels, exposing himself to the heat of the sun, after fasting two and a half days without drinking water, being engaged in deep meditation, reached the highest knowledge and intuition, called Kevala, which is infinite, supreme, unobstructed, unimpeded, complete, and full. (120) 2

When the Venerable Ascetic Mahâvîra had become a Gina and Arhat, he was a Kevalin, omniscient and comprehending all objects; he knew and saw all conditions of the world, of gods, (p. 264)
men, and demons: whence they come, whither they go, whether they are born as men or animals (kyavana) or become gods or hell-beings (upapâda), the ideas, the thoughts of their minds, the food, doings, desires, the open and secret deeds of all the living beings in the whole world; he the Arhat, for whom there is no secret, knew and saw all conditions of all living beings in the world, what they thought, spoke, or did at any moment.
(121) 1"
https://www.sacred-texts.com/jai/sbe22/sbe2285.htm
Jaina Sutras, Part II (SBE22), tr. by Hermann Jacobi, [1884]
I'm challenged to find where anything you claim can be confirmed beyond, "Well there he said it, so come on now".

I struggle with hallucinations myself. I've had to go to jail over em. And 'residences' about em. So I tell folks upfront, there I sit. Heck, in hallucinations, truth and reality are real, but don't it beat all, the hallucinations can over-ride em both.

But I can't offer confirmation of such, without exposing my history of questionable, erratic, and so often embarrassing actions - beyond my site history. So I tell folks such is just anecdotal, and all such as that. I hate folks who peddle in unreality, specifically cause I struggle so hard to discern what is of it, and what ain't.

So I can hide such behind, "Naw, really now, I've got me this big high falooting knowledge it is, y'all can't obtain up to 'til is is ya believe ya can".

I fear you peddle knowledge of the unknown and unknowable behind pseudoscientific and pseudopsychological psychobabble.

Throughout this thread all you've done is make claim after claim, while presenting others' unproven claims in a weak, sickening attempt to support the unsupported claims you claim.

Flee from science, cause science ain't it a friend to nothing you claim.


Now challenge me.

Challenge me to go back through your unsupported claims. And expose those claims as the wishful thinkings of a wishful thinker!
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

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Re: Realization leads to God

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Post by brunumb »

Swami wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:34 pm If science has the answers then why haven't they discovered the origin and nature of consciousness? I have discovered those answers using meditation.
The scientific method has led to enormous gains in knowledge and understanding of the world we live in. To expect every question to have been answered already is absurd in the extreme and really just reflects a desperate effort to diminish the value of science. On the other hand, sitting cross-legged on a mat and emptying the mind has not really given us an awful lot apart from a means to relaxation. Any scientist who unequivocally discovered and explained the origin and nature of consciousness would be hailed the world over, and probably be in line for a Nobel prize. I'm sure the same would apply to an internet meditation guru. But then again, unsupported claims are a dime a dozen and it seems more likely that that is exactly what we have here.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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