Perception without the senses

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Perception without the senses

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Scientists tell us that our senses are limited. We do not always perceive reality as it is. The reality we perceive is an interpretation of our brain and senses.

In Eastern thought, we have overcome this hurdle with the practice of meditation. Meditation is a way to experience without the senses. When people first hear this they first response is to doubt. But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream. How can they doubt when they can experience their mind through introspection?

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Re: Perception without the senses

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Scientists tell us that our senses are limited.
This is true. For example, we know that there are colors such as infrared and ultraviolet which lie outside the color spectrum that humans can see. We know that these colors exist because we can measure them. We also know that although humans cannot directly perceive these colors, some organisms, such as birds and bees, can.
We do not always perceive reality as it is.
This is also true. For example, on the atomic level, nuculei are tiny packets of stuff surrounded by electron shells with an immense space in between. At this level, matter is mostly made up of space. Yet on the macroscopic level, matter appears solid.
The reality we perceive is an interpretation of our brain and senses.
But the matter we perceive is not only an interpretation of our brain and senses. As a philosophical naturalist, I believe that there is an objective, external world and that our senses can adequately discern this external world such that we can create an internal model of this reality.

The philosophy that he matter we perceive is only an interpretation of our brain and senses is called idealism and has a long history of philosophical disproof.

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Re: Perception without the senses

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Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm
But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream.
Because they are smart enough to know that the content of dreams is limited by the senses the dreamer has:
  • Do blind people see in their dreams?

    People who are born blind, or become blind early in life (before around five or seven years of age), do not experience visual imagery when they dream. People who became blind later typically do retain some visual imagery when they dream – but less so than in sighted individuals.

    A study by Danish researchers found that the longer someone has been blind, the less likely they are to dream visually. And while those who were born blind may not see in their sleep, they are more likely than those with sight to experience auditory, olfactory, gustatory and tactile components to their dreams.

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human- ... ir-dreams/

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Re: Perception without the senses

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Tcg wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:54 pm
Swami wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm
But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream.
Because they are smart enough to know that the content of dreams is limited by the senses the dreamer has:
  • Do blind people see in their dreams?
    A blind person is closer to perceiving the true nature of reality than someone who perceives with their eyes.
    People who are born blind, or become blind early in life (before around five or seven years of age), do not experience visual imagery when they dream. People who became blind later typically do retain some visual imagery when they dream – but less so than in sighted individuals.

    A study by Danish researchers found that the longer someone has been blind, the less likely they are to dream visually. And while those who were born blind may not see in their sleep, they are more likely than those with sight to experience auditory, olfactory, gustatory and tactile components to their dreams.

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human- ... ir-dreams/

Tcg

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Re: Perception without the senses

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Tcg wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:54 pm
Swami wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm
But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream.
Because they are smart enough to know that the content of dreams is limited by the senses the dreamer has:
  • Do blind people see in their dreams?

    People who are born blind, or become blind early in life (before around five or seven years of age), do not experience visual imagery when they dream. People who became blind later typically do retain some visual imagery when they dream – but less so than in sighted individuals.

    A study by Danish researchers found that the longer someone has been blind, the less likely they are to dream visually. And while those who were born blind may not see in their sleep, they are more likely than those with sight to experience auditory, olfactory, gustatory and tactile components to their dreams.

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human- ... ir-dreams/

Tcg
A blind person is closer to perceiving the true nature of reality than someone who perceives with their eyes.

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Re: Perception without the senses

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Post by Kylie »

Swami wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm Scientists tell us that our senses are limited. We do not always perceive reality as it is. The reality we perceive is an interpretation of our brain and senses.

In Eastern thought, we have overcome this hurdle with the practice of meditation. Meditation is a way to experience without the senses. When people first hear this they first response is to doubt. But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream. How can they doubt when they can experience their mind through introspection?
That would work, provided we have some way of verifying what meditation tells us. If it can'tm be verified, then there's no reason to believe it to be true.

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Re: Perception without the senses

Post #7

Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:13 am
Tcg wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:54 pm
Swami wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 10:42 pm
But how is it that they doubt when they experience without the senses everyday when they dream.
Because they are smart enough to know that the content of dreams is limited by the senses the dreamer has:
  • Do blind people see in their dreams?

    People who are born blind, or become blind early in life (before around five or seven years of age), do not experience visual imagery when they dream. People who became blind later typically do retain some visual imagery when they dream – but less so than in sighted individuals.

    A study by Danish researchers found that the longer someone has been blind, the less likely they are to dream visually. And while those who were born blind may not see in their sleep, they are more likely than those with sight to experience auditory, olfactory, gustatory and tactile components to their dreams.

    https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human- ... ir-dreams/

Tcg
A blind person is closer to perceiving the true nature of reality than someone who perceives with their eyes.
Astute readers will realize that this is simply another unsupported assertion. One that totally fails to address the scientific facts I've documented.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Perception without the senses

Post #8

Post by Overcomer »

TCG wrote:
Do blind people see in their dreams?
A blind person is closer to perceiving the true nature of reality than someone who perceives with their eyes.
People who are born blind, or become blind early in life (before around five or seven years of age), do not experience visual imagery when they dream. People who became blind later typically do retain some visual imagery when they dream – but less so than in sighted individuals.

A study by Danish researchers found that the longer someone has been blind, the less likely they are to dream visually. And while those who were born blind may not see in their sleep, they are more likely than those with sight to experience auditory, olfactory, gustatory and tactile components to their dreams.
I had never thought about how blind people dream. I found that very interesting. Thank you for posting that, TCG.

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Re: Perception without the senses

Post #9

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Tcg wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:56 am
Swami wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:13 am A blind person is closer to perceiving the true nature of reality than someone who perceives with their eyes.
Astute readers will realize that this is simply another unsupported assertion. One that totally fails to address the scientific facts I've documented.
Tcg
Scientists say that the senses deceive us. Yet we need to perceive with the senses to know things (so they think). I've presented the Eastern perspective as a solution. You don't have to perceive with the senses. You can perceive without them. The Eastern mystics say that this perception leads to perceiving reality as it is. This is my only message here.

Chandogya Upanishad 7.24
"'Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else, that is the Infinite. Where one sees something -else, hears something else, understands something else, that is the finite. The Infinite is immortal, the finite is mortal."

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Re: Perception without the senses

Post #10

Post by elphidium55 »

We will just have to agree to disagree on this. I think you represented the eastern point of view on this topic well. I just do not share many of your premises.

Be aware that citing an authoritative text such as the bible, the quran or the upanishads may explain part of what motivates your belief but does not serve to persuade those for whom the text cited is not authoritative. Simply put, the Chandogya Upanishad does not move me in any direction whatsoever.

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