God as fundamental reality

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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God as fundamental reality

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In scientific worldview, the most basic level of the Universe determines the nature of things. This is why scientists practice reductive materialism as a way to explain everything in terms of its most basic parts and their interaction. Everything in the Universe then is just the play of physics.

Everything is Physics
Physicists like to say that, if you look deeply into any branch of science, you’ll find physics at its core. Not every chemist, biologist or psychologist may agree with that notion, but the physicists do have a point: they study matter at its most basic, and the physical sciences ultimately are trying to explain how matter works, whether in black holes or brain cells.https://www.kavlifoundation.org/science ... rN4O25Fx7g

In Hinduism, there is also the concept of fundamental reality but it is called God. God is not a White male in the sky, but rather God is whatever is at the level of fundamental reality. What exists at fundamental reality? To the Hindu, it is nothing but Brahman. Brahman contains the attributes of bliss, existence, and awareness (consciousness). This is why I say everything is just a manifestation of consciousness.

Consciousness is fundamental. Everything should be explained in terms of it. This is why it is foolish for scientists to advocate for materialism as if explaining something out there will lead you to understand life. This is backwards and foolish philosophy.

How can I be so sure? Experience. But for the skeptic, let us show this using reduction.

Where do humans come from? Biology.
Where does biology come from? Chemistry - molecules
Where does chemistry come from? Physics - atoms, particles..
Where do atoms and particles come from? Our experience of it.
Where does experience come from? Our awareness.

And finally, where does awareness come from? You can not get beyond awareness and existence.


For discussion:
Can we go beyond consciousness?
How can you know this, when you need consciousness to know?

Quantum physicist provides the answer:
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
- Max Planck (father of quantum theory)

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #31

Post by Thomas123 »

Swami:" My disagreement with Western materialist science is their path to the Real. They mistake matter for the Real and their actions reinforces it. This has led mankind to lots of evil and suffering."

Thomas123

I have a problem with Western materialistic science too, but it is much different to the one expressed here.My gripe also manifests itself in incompetence and error.

Swami ,is sincere in this submission but then again , ...so am I, in my fundamental opposition to this consciousness 'or bust' hypothesis. It undermines all that my reasoning has established to date. Why not, just feel and experience a real world such as ours? Why hypothesise ourselves out of it?. I consider this cowardice and delusion.

Everything runs along independent from and outside the control of what I perceive to be 'consciousness'.

The rock fall on Mars is 'noisy'. It's vibrations are there to be consciously assimilated or not.

Consider the digestive tract as an example of a sub-conscious happening that is of a very immediate and often ,'involuntary',nature.
Why did you become hungry? Why is your stomach rumbling? Why are you salivating? Why are you anxious and attentive? Why are you ' full'? Why are you selective? What prompts you to go to the toilet?
What prompts your digestive tract to release waste and toxins? How.....?

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophies, as the Great Bard once suggested, but these things are every day simple events and not fanciful diversionary delusions ,imho.

We differ greatly here, Swami, but isn't that the nature of human considerations. Go Well!

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #32

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Thomas123 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 5:37 am Swami:" My disagreement with Western materialist science is their path to the Real. They mistake matter for the Real and their actions reinforces it. This has led mankind to lots of evil and suffering."

Thomas123

I have a problem with Western materialistic science too, but it is much different to the one expressed here.My gripe also manifests itself in incompetence and error.

Swami ,is sincere in this submission but then again , ...so am I, in my fundamental opposition to this consciousness 'or bust' hypothesis. It undermines all that my reasoning has established to date. Why not, just feel and experience a real world such as ours? Why hypothesise ourselves out of it?. I consider this cowardice and delusion.

Everything runs along independent from and outside the control of what I perceive to be 'consciousness'.

The rock fall on Mars is 'noisy'. It's vibrations are there to be consciously assimilated or not.

Consider the digestive tract as an example of a sub-conscious happening that is of a very immediate and often ,'involuntary',nature.
Why did you become hungry? Why is your stomach rumbling? Why are you salivating? Why are you anxious and attentive? Why are you ' full'? Why are you selective? What prompts you to go to the toilet?
What prompts your digestive tract to release waste and toxins? How.....?

There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophies, as the Great Bard once suggested, but these things are every day simple events and not fanciful diversionary delusions ,imho.

We differ greatly here, Swami, but isn't that the nature of human considerations. Go Well!
There are many parts in your question. You make statements regarding my hypothesis, sound as vibration, and involuntary processes.

A fundamental error that the Western worldview makes is not knowing the nature of consciousness and its place in the Universe. Is consciousness fundamental or is it a product of matter? The answer to this important question tells us about the nature of reality; it tells us from which direction we should examine life and Universe. This is where I start my exploration. To the materialist and skeptic, the "real" is only matter and the forces that govern its interactions. They say this without explaining consciousness. To the mystic, the "real" is not matter and this realization comes from having discovered the origin and nature of consciousness. This is why when skeptics and scientists boast about knowing this and that, the first question I ask them is about the nature of consciousness. To no surprise, the majority have no answers to this.

"Why hypothesize"...
I don't hypothesize but rather my insight is gained through experience (observation). Both the Eastern and Western thinker admit that the world involves a subject (you) and object (the things in Universe apart from subject). In my previous explanations, I have shown how and why there is no real split between subject and object. In contrast, Western scientists believe that there is a split between subject and object, and that object gave rise to subject. Scientists draw this conclusion without knowing the nature of consciousness. This is very arrogant and foolish on their part.

"Noise is a vibration"...
Does a tree falling make noise if no one is there to perceive it? How do you know that noise is a vibration? You first discovered this through your senses. You can leave scientific tools in place to measure sound when you are not there, and it picks up a vibration. These tools are nothing more than extensions of our senses. You have to confirm and filter the data through your mind and senses. You can use induction to infer that a tree fell, but even inference is based on prior observation. Even the source of the inference is the mind. We come back to the point that you don't know anything outside of your senses and mind. The mind and senses are subject based. How can scientists truly arrive at conclusion that something exists outside of subject, and furthermore describe what that something is? There is no justification for the world of objects existing without a subject.

Keep in mind, that when I say nothing exists outside of consciousness, I am referring to it in its true form. The true form of consciousness is beyond body, beyond all matter, and beyond self. When you have this perspective, you are seeing as the Universe sees rather than how the body sees.

"I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description."
Linda's full explanation here:
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... xperiences

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Re: God as fundamental reality

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Thank You, Swami, there is always the possibility that we are both attempting to bail out the same sinking boat. Here is my take on things for your consideration. See if you can recognize any common ground.

Conscious life occoured and evolved within an infrastructure that was pre existing in this corner of the universe. Life diversified into a myriad of conscious life forms, from humans right down through ,insects, plants, microbes etc.


Our sensory faculties are the result of our evolutionary path and they differ from the sensory faculties of all other life forms ,to a greater or lesser degree.

The world and its infrastructure is not exactly as we perceive it to be. Our perceptions are selective, agenda based and largely pre-ordained by our species modus. To live within the sensory kaleidoscope of a dog, a bat, a tree, etc would provide a different subjective experience of the infrastructure of all life. How does a mouse experience a cat?
We are looking through narrow slits in this human defense armour that acts as sensual protection for us against our vulnerabilities.

To know the real world we have to be active in that world. We must be cognizant of the interrelated actions of all other aspects of life as they shuffle around our personal perimeters. If we recognize nuance similarities to our own modus we can reference and synchronise our movements towards a collaboration of external truth.

To attempt to assimilate the world alone is to be pathetically lost. This would move us towards a collective consciousness that might approximate to 'common ground', or not!

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Re: God as fundamental reality

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I do not doubt evolution nor the scientific view of perception. What I doubt is that this knowledge will lead you to being able to distinguish the real from the unreal. Knowledge of fundamental reality can point you to the real. I explained this at the start of our discussion.

To date, your scientists know little to nothing about the nature and origin of consciousness, life, and Universe but yet many theorize that it must all be interactions of matter. In contrast, the Eastern thinkers and mystics have experienced fundamental reality. Discovering the nature of consciousness led them to to fundamental reality.

This is one reason why I don't go too far into metaphysics from the start. It is very difficult for a seeker to understand because of their pre-existing experience of the world. When a seeker is willing to experience beyond that then they will begin to understand. If you are very skeptical that you could experience the fundamental reality of the Universe then at least try experiencing yourself at its fundamental level. This can be done anytime and even at the place where you're at right now. Perhaps you will realize that you are pure awareness and that this extends beyond your mind, your body, and even beyond your sense of self. Then refer back to Linda Johnsen's testimony.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

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For those who still do not understand, God is simply your innermost Self. Therefore the Self is the source of infinite bliss, existence, and awareness. The practice of meditation leads you to this fundamental Self. It works by showing you that you can exist without bodily input, mental input but that which you cannot exist without is the Self (awareness of self).

Science has shown that meditation leads to increased happiness, increased mental potential, and more. All of these qualities are the very nature of your true and innermost self so focusing on Self will naturally lead to the growth of happiness and awareness.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

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Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:32 am For those who still do not understand, God is simply your innermost Self.
There is no need for two phrases then. No need to call myself God if God is nothing other than myself. The word "me" is all that is needed.


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Re: God as fundamental reality

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My tuppence worth ,is as follows. We are simply part of life on earth. You would like to imagine that there is more to it, but there is not. To chase illusionary shadows is a fool's errand, imho.

I see and feel a God cohesion to all this. We emerged from this oblivion and we will disappear painlessly back from whence we came. We have participated in shape shifting hypotheses, both religious and scientific, since we became self-aware of our actions as a specific species.

We should accept the liberation that is acceptance of our scope and remit as an integrated component of this life on earth adventure. With our evolved awareness and capabilities we possess the potential to be wonderful in the cosmos ,both for ourselves and the generations of life ,yet to come.

The pains and errors of the past were and are still real ,as we start to look back at matters such as slavery and its present consequences. We can only make reparations for the past by displaying a move away from the antiquated moduses of a previous time. Otherwise we just perpetuate insult and folly.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #38

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Swami wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 7:14 pm
Divine Insight wrote:So in other words, you believe in Hinduism. Good for you. But that doesn't make it true, right?
It is not truth by itself. I do not accept anything as truth unless I can experience it for myself. I encourage everyone else to do the same.
Divine Insight wrote:Calling large groups of people foolish only suggest arrogance on your part.
I have spoken with many scientists at many universities. I can many are arrogant. They are too smart in their own eyes. The truth is they know too much about the wrong things. A truly smart person knows a lot about the right things.

Extra:
The most important to know is about the nature of self. They are studying based on a fundamental error by studying things in terms of matter.
And, how do you know this? That might be your chosen path, but isn't your saying that 'the most important is to know the nature of self' a matter of both opinion and arrogance in and of itself? Not everyone chooses the same path,and it seem arrogant to me to say that the path you choose for yourself is the path everyone should take.

Divine Insight wrote: You are about to make a grave error in reasoning here:
Swami wrote: Where do atoms and particles come from? Our experience of it. <--Grave Error right here!
Where does experience come from? Our awareness.
And how do we obtain awareness without a living physical brain? Your idea of reductionism is grossly flawed. If your brain dies you are no longer aware of anything. In fact, it doesn't even need to die. Even brains that are still alive can be totally unconscious and potentially have no awareness at all.
The brain does not create consciousness. What neuroscientists are studying is how consciousness experiences through the brain. This does not mean that consciousness can not experience through or as part of anything else and that is the big picture that scientists are missing. They will only find interaction without causation and that is because consciousness is uncaused.
And do you know that the brain does not create consciousness? What evidence do you have that this is so? I see a lot of unsupported claim, but just because someone makes a claim or has a belief doesn't mean that belief or claim is true. Do you have something than the argument from belief and weak analogies ?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: God as fundamental reality

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[Replying to Swami in post #1]

Just for inspiration:

http://www.sistersufi.com/consciousness ... rituality/

Your friend forever

Waterfall

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