God as fundamental reality

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Swami
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God as fundamental reality

Post #1

Post by Swami »

In scientific worldview, the most basic level of the Universe determines the nature of things. This is why scientists practice reductive materialism as a way to explain everything in terms of its most basic parts and their interaction. Everything in the Universe then is just the play of physics.

Everything is Physics
Physicists like to say that, if you look deeply into any branch of science, you’ll find physics at its core. Not every chemist, biologist or psychologist may agree with that notion, but the physicists do have a point: they study matter at its most basic, and the physical sciences ultimately are trying to explain how matter works, whether in black holes or brain cells.https://www.kavlifoundation.org/science ... rN4O25Fx7g

In Hinduism, there is also the concept of fundamental reality but it is called God. God is not a White male in the sky, but rather God is whatever is at the level of fundamental reality. What exists at fundamental reality? To the Hindu, it is nothing but Brahman. Brahman contains the attributes of bliss, existence, and awareness (consciousness). This is why I say everything is just a manifestation of consciousness.

Consciousness is fundamental. Everything should be explained in terms of it. This is why it is foolish for scientists to advocate for materialism as if explaining something out there will lead you to understand life. This is backwards and foolish philosophy.

How can I be so sure? Experience. But for the skeptic, let us show this using reduction.

Where do humans come from? Biology.
Where does biology come from? Chemistry - molecules
Where does chemistry come from? Physics - atoms, particles..
Where do atoms and particles come from? Our experience of it.
Where does experience come from? Our awareness.

And finally, where does awareness come from? You can not get beyond awareness and existence.


For discussion:
Can we go beyond consciousness?
How can you know this, when you need consciousness to know?

Quantum physicist provides the answer:
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
- Max Planck (father of quantum theory)

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Post #11

Post by William »

Thomas123 wrote: Swami: "I am sure there is knowledge to this but how does this answer the big questions that man is after? What is the nature and origin of the Universe? What is the reality of things? What is its fundamental nature? These are the big questions that scientists should be after."

..........
Why would any sensible human being want to know any of this?
A human being is a creature of the senses and thus it is natural enough and therefore sensible.

One factor of the equation is that the seeker finds out he is an Eternal Being who just happens to - for now - be experiencing being 'human' with that.

From what you have said regarding your own beliefs about that, said beliefs are for the purpose of avoiding having to go down that particular pathway.

That it is the 'sensible' option as you appear to be claiming, is debatable

You are asking not to be 'woken' and believe that death will give you that option.

Maybe it will, but banking on it is perhaps not the sensible option, since options are available to the individual.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #12

Post by William »

[Replying to post 1 by Swami]
For discussion:
Can we go beyond consciousness?
How can you know this, when you need consciousness to know?
I have read about states of mind which someone can silence their thoughts - but thought is not what makes consciousness conscious. Thoughts are like everything else. A bi-product of the condition of consciousness.

Consciousness is a self awareness related to an 'other than self' awareness which self awareness uses to reflect off of.

It could be argued that without the sense of 'other' to reflect off of, then there might not be a sense of self and therefore theoretically one could argue one can then go beyond consciousness...but that too would be an illusion to which consciousness would eventually spring out of and once again create 'the other' in which to reflect off of.

So why would consciousness want to go beyond itself rather than simply work with what it has to work with?

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Post #13

Post by Thomas123 »

William: One factor of the equation is that the seeker finds out he is an Eternal Being who just happens to - for now - be experiencing being 'human' with that.

If you had a microdot of plausibility to this hypothesis, I could entertain it . You know my position well on this ,William. What is the down side to refuse to fly towards these far fetched musings? Do you see any inherent negativity to expecting nothing other than death and taxes. I'm carbon!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi ... human_body

I knew I was made of something.
Thank You ,William.

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Post #14

Post by William »

Thomas123 wrote: William: One factor of the equation is that the seeker finds out he is an Eternal Being who just happens to - for now - be experiencing being 'human' with that.

If you had a microdot of plausibility to this hypothesis, I could entertain it . You know my position well on this ,William. What is the down side to refuse to fly towards these far fetched musings? Do you see any inherent negativity to expecting nothing other than death and taxes. I'm carbon!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi ... human_body

I knew I was made of something.
Thank You ,William.
The plausibility is contained within the research of which you wrote;
If I'm dreaming, dont pinch me, please
From what you have said regarding your own beliefs about that, said beliefs are for the purpose of avoiding having to go down that particular pathway.

That it is the 'sensible' option as you appear to be claiming, is debatable


I accept that you don't want to know. This is not because it is implausible...it is because you don't want to know...

You are asking not to be 'woken' and believe that death will give you that option. This is a common non-theist position which some theists obviously also believe in.

Maybe death will be the end of you, but banking on it is perhaps not the sensible option, since options are available to the individual.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #15

Post by Purple Knight »

Swami wrote: In scientific worldview, the most basic level of the Universe determines the nature of things. Everything in the Universe then is just the play of physics.

In Hinduism, there is also the concept of fundamental reality but it is called God. God is not a White male in the sky, but rather God is whatever is at the level of fundamental reality. What exists at fundamental reality?
You're approaching Spinoza here which I have no problem with.

As far as I see it, the universe is so beautiful that it deserves to be worshiped.

Also cats. They also totally look like they should be worshiped.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #16

Post by Swami »

William wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Swami]
For discussion:
Can we go beyond consciousness?
How can you know this, when you need consciousness to know?
I have read about states of mind which someone can silence their thoughts - but thought is not what makes consciousness conscious. Thoughts are like everything else. A bi-product of the condition of consciousness.

Consciousness is a self awareness related to an 'other than self' awareness which self awareness uses to reflect off of.

It could be argued that without the sense of 'other' to reflect off of, then there might not be a sense of self and therefore theoretically one could argue one can then go beyond consciousness...but that too would be an illusion to which consciousness would eventually spring out of and once again create 'the other' in which to reflect off of.

So why would consciousness want to go beyond itself rather than simply work with what it has to work with?
I do not accept that anything can exist outside of consciousness. Even Western philosophers like Hume were skeptical of existence outside of consciousness.

In our wakeful consciousness we experience duality, but in the pure conscious state we experience non-duality. In the pure conscious state, consciousness is both the subject and object. I believe this is what you mean in your points about self-awareness.

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Post #17

Post by Swami »

Thomas123 wrote: Swami: "I am sure there is knowledge to this but how does this answer the big questions that man is after? What is the nature and origin of the Universe? What is the reality of things? What is its fundamental nature? These are the big questions that scientists should be after."

..........
Why would any sensible human being want to know any of this?
Why would I want to know that reality does not exist?
You accuse science of running in the wrong direction only because they cannot reach the absurd. I have a much more logical gripe with the sciences.
If I'm dreaming, dont pinch me, please,Swami!
It is because people do not find true happiness when they chase after materialism. Under materialism, things come and go (die off). True happiness will not come and go.

Many people take offense when Jesus required that his disciples let go of their worldly possessions and even their family. In Eastern thought, there is a similar concept called "detachment". The reason why Jesus made such request is because people and things do not lead to lasting happiness. According to Jesus, being attached to God was only true happiness. In my view, God or your true Self is everlasting and unlimited. Do not understand me as saying to not love your family or do harm, but they are secondary. Your primary attachment should be Self or God.

Many in the West are on antidepressants because they have no true source of happiness. This is the best that a materialist science can do.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #18

Post by William »

[Replying to post 14 by Swami]
In our wakeful consciousness we experience duality, but in the pure conscious state we experience non-duality. In the pure conscious state, consciousness is both the subject and object. I believe this is what you mean in your points about self-awareness.
My points made are to the extent that 'other' exists as a reference to self existence.

Take away things, and all that is left is consciousness, which might be what you are referring to as 'pure consciousness'? Consciousness which exists when the reflective qualities of objects are removed?

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #19

Post by Swami »

William wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Swami]
In our wakeful consciousness we experience duality, but in the pure conscious state we experience non-duality. In the pure conscious state, consciousness is both the subject and object. I believe this is what you mean in your points about self-awareness.
My points made are to the extent that 'other' exists as a reference to self existence.

Take away things, and all that is left is consciousness, which might be what you are referring to as 'pure consciousness'? Consciousness which exists when the reflective qualities of objects are removed?
There are two ways to understand pure consciousness. There is an epistemological type meaning and an ontological meaning.

One is a state that is only observing. I call it a pure conscious state or pure perception because it does not involve any filters or way of looking. You are just a passive observer, experiencing or perceiving reality as is. In yoga, this can be used as a method for knowledge. You see when you use the same mode of perception but direct it towards an object, then you are perceiving the object as it is. You even become the object in that you know what its like. When you focus on Self, then you know what its like to be God.

Another way to understand the concept is as a type of existence. This is what you are bringing up. A reality where only consciousness exist. This is not how the Universe exist. In the Universe, there is real and unreal and we experience both. The real is only consciousness as the subject and object. The unreal is the manifestations of consciousness involving a separation of subject and object.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #20

Post by William »

Swami wrote:
William wrote: [Replying to post 14 by Swami]
In our wakeful consciousness we experience duality, but in the pure conscious state we experience non-duality. In the pure conscious state, consciousness is both the subject and object. I believe this is what you mean in your points about self-awareness.
My points made are to the extent that 'other' exists as a reference to self existence.

Take away things, and all that is left is consciousness, which might be what you are referring to as 'pure consciousness'? Consciousness which exists when the reflective qualities of objects are removed?
There are two ways to understand pure consciousness. There is an epistemological type meaning and an ontological meaning.

One is a state that is only observing. I call it a pure conscious state or pure perception because it does not involve any filters or way of looking. You are just a passive observer, experiencing or perceiving reality as is. In yoga, this can be used as a method for knowledge. You see when you use the same mode of perception but direct it towards an object, then you are perceiving the object as it is. You even become the object in that you know what its like. When you focus on Self, then you know what its like to be God.

Another way to understand the concept is as a type of existence. This is what you are bringing up. A reality where only consciousness exist. This is not how the Universe exist. In the Universe, there is real and unreal and we experience both. The real is only consciousness as the subject and object. The unreal is the manifestations of consciousness involving a separation of subject and object.
I suppose my question has to be...if there is such a state as 'pure consciousness' and it is as you say, then is any other state consciousness is in, 'impure consciousness' by said definition?

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