God as fundamental reality

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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God as fundamental reality

Post #1

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In scientific worldview, the most basic level of the Universe determines the nature of things. This is why scientists practice reductive materialism as a way to explain everything in terms of its most basic parts and their interaction. Everything in the Universe then is just the play of physics.

Everything is Physics
Physicists like to say that, if you look deeply into any branch of science, you’ll find physics at its core. Not every chemist, biologist or psychologist may agree with that notion, but the physicists do have a point: they study matter at its most basic, and the physical sciences ultimately are trying to explain how matter works, whether in black holes or brain cells.https://www.kavlifoundation.org/science ... rN4O25Fx7g

In Hinduism, there is also the concept of fundamental reality but it is called God. God is not a White male in the sky, but rather God is whatever is at the level of fundamental reality. What exists at fundamental reality? To the Hindu, it is nothing but Brahman. Brahman contains the attributes of bliss, existence, and awareness (consciousness). This is why I say everything is just a manifestation of consciousness.

Consciousness is fundamental. Everything should be explained in terms of it. This is why it is foolish for scientists to advocate for materialism as if explaining something out there will lead you to understand life. This is backwards and foolish philosophy.

How can I be so sure? Experience. But for the skeptic, let us show this using reduction.

Where do humans come from? Biology.
Where does biology come from? Chemistry - molecules
Where does chemistry come from? Physics - atoms, particles..
Where do atoms and particles come from? Our experience of it.
Where does experience come from? Our awareness.

And finally, where does awareness come from? You can not get beyond awareness and existence.


For discussion:
Can we go beyond consciousness?
How can you know this, when you need consciousness to know?

Quantum physicist provides the answer:
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
- Max Planck (father of quantum theory)

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Post #21

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William wrote:I suppose my question has to be...if there is such a state as 'pure consciousness' and it is as you say, then is any other state consciousness is in, 'impure consciousness' by said definition?
Impure consciousness would be what we know about perception or awareness through the body and senses. When we perceive something through our senses it is interpreted and constructed by the brain. This is further colored by mental input when it comes to perspective, our thinking, etc. All of these things impact how we perceive the world. In this sense, there is no direct connection between consciousness and the object (like the planet Mercury). Instead it is consciousness, working through an object, like brain, to perceive another object.

Knowing the true nature of reality, I can already tell you that impure consciousness is whatever that causes a split between subject and object. Having a direct or pure perception of an object involves a direct connection between consciousness and the object. The Eastern wisdom traditions tell us that this experience, while not mediated by the brain, does not work by perceiving something outside of you, but instead involves becoming one with the object. This is precisely how perception without the senses work. An example of a direct experience is the experience of our body. We don't experience our brain, mind, and body through another object, but rather it's a direct link between the subject (consciousness) and the object (the body/mind) - both subject and object are considered one.

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Post #22

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Discovering the nature of consciousness led me to the very nature of reality.


Discovering the nature of consciousness
Earlier I explained how to get to the fundamental level of consciousness. You do this by reducing it to the smallest level of where experience still exist. We know you don't need senses to experience because we dream. We know that awareness does not need mental input because I can remain aware while my thoughts and feelings are silenced during meditation. What is left is pure awareness - an awareness that is both the subject and object. This is fundamental and is therefore the nature of consciousness.

Please continue to follow and I will explain how this leads to the nature of reality...Using my eyes, I perceive an object. After that, I use introspection to perceive the same object. Then using meditation, I perceive the same object. What is the difference? One involves perception with the senses and the others are perceptions without the senses. But what is difference between introspection and meditative perception? In introspection the mind (thoughts, feelings, reason, judgement) is involved, but in meditation it is just awareness and the object. In deep meditation, I eventually lose focus of self distinct from object, and the two merge. I (the subject) am now one with object. When I realize that I can merge with any object, then I also realized that consciousness can be part of any object. I know this is more than just my mind because becoming one with object leads to knowledge about the object. I can tell you everything there is to know about Mercury if that was my focus. I can know your mind. I can know what the strength of a elephant is like. These are manifestations that can not be brought on by experiencing my mind or imagination. But even this is not fundamental reality.

I then realized that I can also become one with an awareness that is greater than "I". When my individual consciousness merges with this Universal consciousness (some call it Brahman, God) then I experience myself as being part of everything. I am immediately omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. I can perceive how these objects exist through me and can't exist without me. They are like a dream that I can control. This is why I know that the Universe is simply a manifestation of this consciousness.


A seeker may ask, how do I know the mental object is the same as the object of my senses?
The role of a teacher should not only be to answer questions but to also understand why the seeker is asking. The seeker questions because he believes that sensory experience of an object confirms that object exists separate from him. But how does the seeker know that the object can exist beyond the senses? He does not. Therefore defining the real as something existing on it's own, separate from sensory experience, is foolish. The mental object is the same but it is more obvious that it is from you. It is the same as the sensory based object except that it is experienced from a different angle.


How has Western science confirmed my worldview?

No scientist can point you to the cause of consciousness. The reason for this is that consciousness has no cause. We know that it interacts with brain, but can they also tell you that it can't interact with anything else? Can a scientist tell you the place of consciousness in nature? They can not. Therefore, Western materialist scientists have failed to explain the origin and nature of consciousness. This is an expectation if the ancient and modern Eastern thinkers are right.

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Post #23

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I am a bit of a flying penguin, when it comes to this stuff ,Swami.
You impress me in the fact that you respond to all questions with equal assurance. You do not appear to dodge ior deflect enquiry. This is a rare display of true confidence in your beliefs.

Help this penguin fly. I am a skeptic by nature.

When two people experience a reality that is not there how is it that their most basic sensory evaluations of an object correspond. It would appear that you recognize codes like colour ,size,weight, etc. For the materialistic realm to appear seamless it would appear that there is a consistency of approach across Infividuals. Are you saying that there is only one consciousness or many or both? Is individual consciousness indivisible from the God consciousness, ie is it the exact same?

I'm flapping, but nothing is happening!

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Post #24

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Thomas123 wrote: I am a bit of a flying penguin, when it comes to this stuff ,Swami.
You impress me in the fact that you respond to all questions with equal assurance. You do not appear to dodge ior deflect enquiry. This is a rare display of true confidence in your beliefs.

Help this penguin fly. I am a skeptic by nature.

When two people experience a reality that is not there how is it that their most basic sensory evaluations of an object correspond. It would appear that you recognize codes like colour ,size,weight, etc. For the materialistic realm to appear seamless it would appear that there is a consistency of approach across Infividuals. Are you saying that there is only one consciousness or many or both? Is individual consciousness indivisible from the God consciousness, ie is it the exact same?

I'm flapping, but nothing is happening!
Thanks Thomas. I do not claim to know everything, but I know a lot about the nature of consciousness because I have experienced it from many different perspectives.

In reality, there is the real and unreal. One is what truly exists and the other is what you think or are fooled into thinking exist but really doesn't.

The only true existence is consciousness in its universal form. Everything else is just a manifestation of it, like a dream. The consciousness that humans possess is an individualized expression of the greater consciousness. It is similar but not exactly the same as the universal form.

The reason why there seems to be consistencies in our experience of reality is because our senses and brain work in similar ways. In my beliefs they are mass delusions. To the Western sciences, real is what the object is in and of itself. It would continue to exist even when no one is perceiving it. The problem that scientists face is that they cannot remove consciousness and the senses from observation because they are the process of observation. You cannot say that something exists without my perception of it when the only way you know it exist is with your perception of it.

The Eastern mystics have solved this problem in their own way. They discovered a way to perceive without the senses, and this includes a way to become one with object. With this practice, you can become friends with a mountain and tell it to move, and it will move. Previously, i explained how this leads to discovering the nature of reality.

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Post #25

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You appear to reject general materialistic thought as delusionary. I may be incorrect in this. I can go with this to a point.

Is there an infrastructure to this existence of ours or does your belief insist on a lack of consideration of this.? I was reading about the ' no go areas ' of Jainism.

Is sensual information and deduction,dismissed because their materialistic source is not there or because the information, extracted by the senses from that source, is essentially contaminated beyond usefulness, and untrue.

Tell me more, Please!

I have been considering 'dreams', that you have alluded to.
I am an incessant dreamer while asleep.
The dreams feel like they have a visual memory element to them. Their illogical narratives appear like a cut and paste defragmentation of actual previous experiences. Is this dreamlike PTSD, just a physical evolutionary necessity of our cognition processes related to our subconscious bodily faculties, like growth etc?

Consider a camera?
Does it take an exact picture of a materialistic reality that we subsequently miscode, or was it subconsciously constructed to produce the image we require? Can your consciousness penetrate a 2d image?

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Post #26

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Thomas123 wrote: You appear to reject general materialistic thought as delusionary. I may be incorrect in this. I can go with this to a point.

Is there an infrastructure to this existence of ours or does your belief insist on a lack of consideration of this.? I was reading about the ' no go areas ' of Jainism.
There is an infrastructure, there are laws, and this extends beyond the bodily life. There are some who gone to other levels of existence were thought manifests as reality. To some, Heaven and Hell are mental constructs. Ultimately, all of these are manifestations of Brahman.

I should say that I also don't subscribe to any particular faith. I have studied mostly the philosophy of Raja Yoga. I then begin to use it as a guide to experience reality. Once I felt that I mastered a good deal of it then I begin learning more about the other Eastern traditions.
Thomas123 wrote:Is sensual information and deduction,dismissed because their materialistic source is not there or because the information, extracted by the senses from that source, is essentially contaminated beyond usefulness, and untrue.

Tell me more, Please!

I have been considering 'dreams', that you have alluded to.
I am an incessant dreamer while asleep.
The dreams feel like they have a visual memory element to them. Their illogical narratives appear like a cut and paste defragmentation of actual previous experiences. Is this dreamlike PTSD, just a physical evolutionary necessity of our cognition processes related to our subconscious bodily faculties, like growth etc?

Consider a camera?
Does it take an exact picture of a materialistic reality that we subsequently miscode, or was it subconsciously constructed to produce the image we require? Can your consciousness penetrate a 2d image?

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Post #27

Post by William »

Swami wrote:
William wrote:I suppose my question has to be...if there is such a state as 'pure consciousness' and it is as you say, then is any other state consciousness is in, 'impure consciousness' by said definition?
Impure consciousness would be what we know about perception or awareness through the body and senses. When we perceive something through our senses it is interpreted and constructed by the brain. This is further colored by mental input when it comes to perspective, our thinking, etc. All of these things impact how we perceive the world. In this sense, there is no direct connection between consciousness and the object (like the planet Mercury). Instead it is consciousness, working through an object, like brain, to perceive another object.

Knowing the true nature of reality, I can already tell you that impure consciousness is whatever that causes a split between subject and object. Having a direct or pure perception of an object involves a direct connection between consciousness and the object. The Eastern wisdom traditions tell us that this experience, while not mediated by the brain, does not work by perceiving something outside of you, but instead involves becoming one with the object. This is precisely how perception without the senses work. An example of a direct experience is the experience of our body. We don't experience our brain, mind, and body through another object, but rather it's a direct link between the subject (consciousness) and the object (the body/mind) - both subject and object are considered one.
I think the idea of pure and impure leads to confusion...it is just the same - or at least similar - to the idea of good and evil.

If we created this reality simulation for the experience, then we obviously made it difficult for us to simply access said information...and this would have to be on account that to retard that information allows us to actually have the experience.

The illusion of learning would therefore be a great respite from the knowing of everything.

The human form and indeed, the universe allows for us to experience learning...this may involve eventually seeing through the illusion because the creation of this has been problematic - its tendency to steer us toward impurity through actions forces some of us to seek alternatives and since we don't see any on offer in the external, we seek this internally.

Even so, we can look at Eastern practices and wonder if it is a sign of indifference and hopelessness rather than practical. Disparity seems equally present in the social systems of the East as with the West....

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #29

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Thomas123 wrote: You appear to reject general materialistic thought as delusionary. I may be incorrect in this. I can go with this to a point.

Is there an infrastructure to this existence of ours or does your belief insist on a lack of consideration of this.? I was reading about the ' no go areas ' of Jainism.
Yes, there is an infrastructure and even Nature but these all exist in consciousness. They appear to be an existence separate from Self but like a dream they are nothing more than Self because they don't truly exist outside of you.

My disagreement with Western materialist science is their path to the Real. They mistake matter for the Real and their actions reinforces it. This has led mankind to lots of evil and suffering.
Thomas123 wrote: Is sensual information and deduction,dismissed because their materialistic source is not there or because the information, extracted by the senses from that source, is essentially contaminated beyond usefulness, and untrue.
No, not simply for their materialistic source. My problem with the senses and mind is more about their limitations than accuracy. You must use your mind and senses to learn about some of the Eastern thinking that I am presenting here. Because we must go through mind to attain liberation, this involves evolving beyond it through morality, meditation, and a cycle of death and rebirth until you get it right. In a sense, liberation from the dream is not just about knowing that all is one but also about behaving as such.
Thomas123 wrote: Tell me more, Please!

I have been considering 'dreams', that you have alluded to.
I am an incessant dreamer while asleep.
The dreams feel like they have a visual memory element to them. Their illogical narratives appear like a cut and paste defragmentation of actual previous experiences. Is this dreamlike PTSD, just a physical evolutionary necessity of our cognition processes related to our subconscious bodily faculties, like growth etc?
Dreams are just expressions of unconscious mental activity. It is important to note that this is activity not just of this lifetime but of all of your lifetimes, including your potential future. This can help you evolve if you know how to use the experience to your benefit.

A guru once told me his theory. The unconscious or subconscious mind is like the memory of the soul. It stores everything about you so therefore it goes beyond the brain's memory. What's also included as "you" is your experience as God and God is omniscient and everywhere. This is why I believe all of the information in the Universe already exist in us. Many don't know how to tap into it.
Thomas123 wrote: Consider a camera?
Does it take an exact picture of a materialistic reality that we subsequently miscode, or was it subconsciously constructed to produce the image we require? Can your consciousness penetrate a 2d image?
Western scientists are not completely wrong on perception. They just don't see the full picture of reality. I've seen it, and my lifelong journey has been to translate it into words that others and I can understand.

As for the 2D image, I can experience just as everything else does. This doesn't mean that everything in the universe has thoughts and feelings but rather there is something that it's like to exist the way it is. I can partake in that existence if that was my focus.

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Re: God as fundamental reality

Post #30

Post by Thomas123 »

Swami:"Yes, there is an infrastructure and even Nature but these all exist in consciousness. They appear to be an existence separate from Self but like a dream they are nothing more than Self because they don't truly exist outside of you."

Thomas123

Thank You Swami, for taking time to respond to my enquiries. As I said, I am a penguin pretending to fly.

I cannot even begin to pretend that I understand anything that you are saying. What's the Jim Carey film where he lives in a dome,...that's me!

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