"You're just another brick in the Wall"

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Thomas123
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"You're just another brick in the Wall"

Post #1

Post by Thomas123 »

Mark Twain
Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is, I dunno. If The Eiffel Tower were now to represent the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle knob at its summit would represent man’s share of that age; and anybody would perceive that the skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would, I dunno.

 Alfred North Whitehead
A single tree by itself is dependent upon all the adverse chances of shifting circumstances. The wind stunts it: the variations in temperature check its foliage: the rains denude its soil: its leaves are blown away and are lost for the purpose of fertilisation. You may obtain individual specimens of line trees either in exceptional circumstances, or where human cultivation had intervened. But in nature the normal way in which trees flourish is by their association in a forest. Each tree may lose something of its individual perfection of growth, but they mutually assist each other in preserving the conditions of survival. The soil is preserved and shaded; and the microbes necessary for its fertility are neither scorched, nor frozen, nor washed away. A forest is the triumph of the organisation of mutually dependent species.

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Post #2

Post by Thomas123 »

I see the human existence like this.

I see a wall in which we are a component, like a stone or brick. Let us imagine an arch in the wall and that we are one of the springer stones in that arch.

I see much of theistic and scientific knowledge as the nefarious alarms of 'the little boy who cried wolf' ,all the time.

Why can we not accept our lot?
Why can we not,just get on with things?
Why are we the weakness in this whole structure?
What is eroding our resolve to support?

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Diagoras
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Re: "You're just another brick in the Wall"

Post #3

Post by Diagoras »

Thomas123 wrote:Man has been here 32,000 years.

Hi, Thomas123. I did wonder where the ‘32,000’ figure came from? I suspect more like 200,000 years at minimum.
That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him
More like 4,500 million years (the age of the earth), although ‘prepare the world’ isn’t a scientifically accurate term, so perhaps you’re referring to habitable land?

The supercontinent of Pangea formed around 300myo, and started to break up around 200myo (roughly the same time we see first evidence of flowering plants). This breakup happened in stages, culminating with the Himalayas forming around 50myo and the world’s landmasses looking approximately like what we see today.
If The Eiffel Tower were now to represent the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle knob at its summit would represent man’s share of that age;
I did wonder about this, so did some rough calculations. Height of Eiffel Tower: 324m. Let’s assume a coat of paint is as thin as 1/10th of a millimetre. Therefore, 200,000 / 4,500,000,000 x 324 = 14.4mm. In other words, your analogy is rather exaggerated, but is still adequate to demonstrate just how small the fraction of time is that ‘we’ have been around.

If you’re interested and have the time, I recommend these videos on the subject:
https://youtu.be/5TbUxGZtwGI[8.42]
https://youtu.be/dGiQaabX3_o[10.06]

 
...in nature the normal way in which trees flourish is by their association in a forest. Each tree may lose something of its individual perfection of growth, but they mutually assist each other in preserving the conditions of survival.
<bolding mine>
Rather than ‘assist’, the evidence strongly points to ‘compete against each other’ (for resources such as water, sunlight and space), while ‘adapting’ to their environment through the process of evolution. Any natural history documentary about a tropical rainforest should make this very clear: all plants there compete aggressively for sunlight and rainfall, resulting in the well-known ‘rainforest canopy’.

Admittedly, the ‘forest as community’ view is more appealing from a poetic perspective. :)
I see the human existence like this.

I see a wall in which we are a component, like a stone or brick.
What are the other components of this wall, if human existence is just one? This question seems more suited to the Philosophy sub-forum, by the way, as I don’t see how I’d be able to back up any claim I made about your analogy, one way or the other.

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Post #4

Post by Thomas123 »

Diagoras:What are the other components of this wall, if human existence is just one?

Thomas123
The opening post is attributed to two others but chosen by me as reflections on the threads central premise. Thank you for your efforts here, Diagoras. This has nothing got to do with philosophy but rather is about religion and science.

I would agree that Twain's deadpan musings might not be accurate 'to the inch', but I doubt if that was their intent. They appear almost sarcastic to me.
I consider both of these contributors to have had amazingly sharp intellects,the second guy having been a prominent mathematician. During my Lockdown reading the link between scientific and religious thought has surfaced ,again and again, to such an extent that it has even surprised me.i can add these examples to the thread if needed to convince anyone of this apparent bond.

Regarding the question in hand, ie the Wall, again thank you for your curiosity.This analogy of mine is only religious if it is considered in that way. It can be considered in a purely scientific way or it can be considered within a more non-specific framework that might amalgamated the two human approaches.

The bricks/stones in the Wall share the same physical components.They have both 'an equalness ' and 'a commonality of purpose' despite their individual appearance and shape. They strain together to create a structure , just as the trees compete to create an eco system that is a beneficial resource for the over all well-being of its species.This is not about grandiose imagery,but rather ,it is about the actuality of life and the human position and purpose within the Wall.

That is why I used the small word ,'just', in the Opening Title. Can we accept this depiction of our proper place and purpose in supporting and benefitting from this existence. The other bricks are animals,birds,trees, plants,microbes, insects etc.
I would personally make insects a springer stone in the arch but that would be personal subjective indulgence. I made humans the other springer stone but I did so with the glibness of Twain and to generally appease more traditional streams of theistic thought. The microbes might be equally as worthy! Let's consider the bricks as life species and the wall as our real existence here.

I encourage all opinion on this and I will respond to any enquiries directed to this opinion. Thank You.

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Post #5

Post by Thomas123 »

Humans are just

(1)....a highly evolved mammalian primate.

(2)....the dominant animal species on this planet

(3).... a versatile and intelligent tool user that has become it's own invention.

(4).... an anomalous threat to the structural integrity of life.


Do you agree?

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Re: "You're just another brick in the Wall"

Post #6

Post by Thomas123 »

It appears that this assertion of mine is to stand ,"uncontested", for what ever reason.

Scrap, "special privilege ' for the human.
Scrap anything with words " own image and likeness"
Scrap our current modus of interrelating with life.

Consider a ' war times tribunal' with ourselves in the dock, and compensation lawyers appointed for the victims of our mindless transgressions.

It appears to be uncontested, as I mentioned!

The simple words of Descartes, keep ringing in my ears, with regard to my Wall assertion.

"Everything is self-evident ".

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