What is ' consciousness ' ?

[Thomas123]

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

[Swami]

Meditation proves that I can exist without mental input, sensory input, and even without the body.

Give that your body doesn't cease to exist when you meditate, this clearly isn't true. Neither mental input nor sensory input cease either, so that claim is also false. Meditation may be fun for its practitioners, but it doesn't prove the things you claim it does.

There are two ways of perceiving. The default for many is perception through the senses and mind. Then there is a perception that does not rely on the senses and mind. The scientists will tell you that the former type of perception is tainted, and that a reality exists beyond our experience of it. Scientists assume the nature of this reality.

The latter type of perception is not tainted because it is not filtered through the mind nor senses. It is a state of pure awareness (pure perception?). Once one gathers enough experience of this perception it will only lead to the conclusion that nothing exists apart from this awareness.

As for existence of the body, when I start meditation I can sense my body, its boundaries, etc. As I get further into meditation, this perception of my body fades, and I start to perceive myself as boundless and even self-less. At this point, I am no longer isolated to a body but rather I become one with the entire Universe.

According to QM, the world exists only as a cloud of simultaneous, overlapping possibilities—technically called a “superposition”—until an observation brings one of these possibilities into focus in the form of definite objects and events. This transition is technically called a “measurement.” One of the keys to our argument for a mental world is the contention that only conscious observers can perform measurements.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/ob ... mechanics/

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck, the father of quantum physics

Yoga Vasistha,Book I, ch. 3

2 Valmiki replied:— Know, holy saint, that the things seen in this world are deceiving, even as the blueness of the sky is an optical illusion. Therefore it is better to efface them in oblivion rather than to keep their memory. 3 All visible objects have no actual existence. We have no idea of them except through sensation. Inquire into these apprehensions and you will never find them as real.

[Thomas123]

Hi Swami,
I am not in a position where I can dismiss any of your submission. There is a movement towards consciousness being a dimension that should be wonderful if it is in anyway true.

I see consciousness as being a consequence of life evolving on earth. It is for me, directionless and arbitrary in that it will always be manipulated and moulded by chance and accident. Who knows what it will become and what life form will carry the baton for the last leg of this cosmic sprint.

Is the universe there at all. Is the argument for a physical reality circular or independent?

Opinions, please!

[Thomas123]

We are on a desert island.
Things are as they are.
We need to investigate and exploit the possibilities of our situation.
We cannot fantasise about ' a mainland'.
We cannot talk to 'Wilson'.

This place can be great if we use our intelligence and we simply need nothing else, either now or in the future.

We do not need rockets, bombs, fantasies of escape, apprehensions about entrapment, etc. Aliens are a figment of our lazy intellects and our fellow man should not be a competitor.
How hard is it to behave rationally?
Are we hopeless?

[Swami]

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

The problem with Western science is that it relies too much on thinking. Thinking is a limitation of the mind. The answers you seek on consciousness and nature of Universe can all be answered through meditation. Meditation opens the door to realization. The greatest realization is that you are the entire Universe and therefore there is nothing "out there" to learn or even think about. It is all in you; it is you, even if you do not yet realize it

What is realization?
Raja Yoga: The path of meditation

[brunumb]

Too much thinking? Yeah, right LOL. The trouble with eastern pseudoscience is that it relies on wooist non-thinking and self-delusion. But, whatever floats your boat.

[Thomas123]

[Replying to brunumb in post #56]

Hi brunumb,
The Swami approach appears more logical and factual to me than the purport of your dismissal. It is not a matter of 'floating anyone's boat' but rather an attempt to seriously consider what is.

[Thomas123]

Swami "Meditation opens the door to realization. The greatest realization is that you are the entire Universe and therefore there is nothing "out there" to learn or even think about. It is all in you; it is you, even if you do not yet realize it"

Thomas123

I get this to some degree. We cannot think the world to be something. We are not mentally out of the world in any real way that would facilitate an objective assimilation. We do not exist in any real sense. In essence we are nothing. A worm crawls across a concrete path and we recognize its hopelessness but we still insist on our own lives being currency.
Our lives are little more than a game of scrabble with ourselves.
All that is real is the hum of our body noise in all its guises, be they mental or sensual in nature. Even this is only subjectively real, I think!
What do you think?

[The Barbarian]

I get this to some degree. We cannot think the world to be something. We are not mentally out of the world in any real way that would facilitate an objective assimilation. We do not exist in any real sense. In essence we are nothing. A worm crawls across a concrete path and we recognize its hopelessness but we still insist on our own lives being currency.
Our lives are little more than a game of scrabble with ourselves.
All that is real is the hum of our body noise in all its guises, be they mental or sensual in nature. Even this is only subjectively real, I think!
What do you think?

Existentialists would remark that your life has whatever meaning you make of it. In the long run, none of us will have a permanent legacy in this world, and there will be a time when we do not exist as a physical entity in this world. My faith in God makes that of no concern at all, but you have other choices to find meaning.

Buddhism works for some. Or you could go to the neo-deism of Vonnegut's Bokonists:

“In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness.

And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close to mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely.

"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God.

"Certainly," said man.

"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God.

And He went away.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

[Thomas123]

The Barbarian
" Existentialists would remark that your life has whatever meaning you make of it. In the long run, none of us will have a permanent legacy in this world, and there will be a time when we do not exist as a physical entity in this world. My faith in God makes that of no concern at all, but you have other choices to find meaning. "

Thomas123
We all exist in our own consciousness(s), as you allude to, and we can, to a greater or lesser extent, manipulate our experience. That is an interesting phenomena in it's own right. It is very utopian to use phrases like ....'follow your dream', etc, etc. More people describe our state as a form of imprisonment in that our created aspirations appear limited by our physical position. Nobody wants to head to oblivion and yet we construe that that is what is in store for us. The War Memorials of the Somme are an attempt at creating lasting memory of people and their consciousness(s) adventures.

A faith in God is a manipulation of your own consciousness and it is a rational and human strategy that has been used since the start of our race. Logic platforms such as the Buddism that you refer to , are variations of these shared internal mental constructs. We attempt to apply a form to the environment of our conscious(s.)

In conclusion, thank you for your contribution to this thread. I continue in my own consciousness and I continue to feel and assimilate its essence. All help is appreciated.

[Thomas123]

https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/202 ... s-project/

I would welcome opinion on this article!