What is ' consciousness ' ?

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Thomas123
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What is ' consciousness ' ?

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Post by Thomas123 »

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #151

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #143]
That's a good question. I think, when 'in the heart' is used, it's mostly used to speak about feelings. But it may depend on the person being asked as I have heard Christians make statements that the physical heart (the actual beating muscle) holds emotions and feelings and memories so, for those, the answer might be different.
To the Jews, the heart was thought of more as having to do with the mind. The thinking part of you.
He’s saying there is something wrong with your heart—not the physical internal organ, but with your inner self, including your mind, thoughts, attitudes, motives, and desires. https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B21010 ... -the-heart
To the ancient Hebrews the heart was the mind, the thoughts. When we are told to love Elohiym with all our heart (Deut 6:5) it is not speaking of an emotional love, but to keep our minds and our thoughts working for him. https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/definition/heart.htm
So when it speaks of the heart in the Bible it is talking about your thoughts, attitudes, motives, and desires, feelings in ancient Hebrews are described as your bowls.

So when the Bible says that we need to love the Lord with all of our hearts. It is speaking of loving the Lord with our thoughts, attitudes, motives and desires. Not the physical heart.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #152

Post by William »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #148]
Scientists and materialists are the human part of the process - that part which comes from breeding. Overpopulation has been enabled because of the science.
Yes ... better medicines and treatments to reduce infant deaths and lengthen lifetimes, safer buildings to protect from the elements, safer travel, etc. But the demand by the general populations of the world is what drove the process. Science was just the discipline that solved most of the technical problems, and of course it is scientists who practice that discipline. So science did enable overpopulation and the ripple effects of that (along with countless other advances that have helped humankind), but it (or materialism) is not the cause of it. It would have happened with or without people who can be described as materialists, as long as enough of them were scientists (and I grant that most scientists are probably materialists, but not all are).
It doesn't matter what the world-view positions are re the scientists, science always has been solidly based in materialism.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #153

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #0]

You said,
Well, for one thing our brains are about 80% neocortex compared to (for example) a chimp's roughly 50%. Since the human brain is around 1300 cc compared to a chimp at 350 cc, we have 6x more neocortex volume than a chimp. But that is just one detail, and you still seem to be equating intelligence and consciousness as if they are the same thing.
So if the Neanderthal's brain was larger 23% larger would they not be smarter? According to your theory above.

The problem with your theory is why is man still not controlled by animal instinct or are they.
Sigmund Freud would say are decisions are based simply as a result of various repressed sexual tendencies.
Skinner would say that our decisions are based on conditioning and that freedom of choice is an illusion.
Crick would say that our decision-making is based on nothing more than the electrochemical process in the brain that is controlled by the genetic code. So this would not be any different than a serial killer whose genetic code programmed him to kill.
Sigmund, Skinner, and Crick would be interpreting human behavior in terms of animal instinct. So why would you say that they may not be correct?
And who says that Freud, Skinner or Crick are right on how we make decisions?
If humans are animals then they would make decisions like animals and Sigmund Freud, Skinner, and Crick would agree with you. What other processes could there be other than that?

I agree with you that life would be pretty depressing if all that there was to human life was a response to stimuli. What are you saying about increased intelligence that makes someone not respond to stimuli in the way that Sigmund, Skinner, and Crick say?

What is the influencing factor that allows man's intelligence to escape his animalistic tendencies?

So if you are saying that man does not make decisions like Sigmund, Skinner and Crick say then man is something more than an animal.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #154

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #153]
So if the Neanderthal's brain was larger 23% larger would they not be smarter? According to your theory above.
What fraction of the Neanderthal brain was neocortex? That was the point of the chimp comparison, but neocortex volume is just one factor. Read this article:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet ... ily-better

They show that Neanderthal brains were only slightly larger than modern humans (by about 4.4% ... 1410 cc average vs 1350 cc for modern humans... not 23%). But the size range for both is large. Again, none of this is "my theory."
Sigmund, Skinner, and Crick would be interpreting human behavior in terms of animal instinct. So why would you say that they may not be correct?
Reality may be some combination of what you listed from these people, or things they didn't list. Maybe our high level of intelligence allows us to make decisions with a lot more input and considerations than a non-human animal. We can certainly out think them, so why would general decision making be any different. Taxonomically we are clearly members of the animal kingdom. Would you put us in with plants or fungii?
If humans are animals then they would make decisions like animals ...
Since we are animals, we must make decisions like animals. We just have a highly capable brain that allows us to factor in many more variables than something without such a brain. What is wrong with that description? Makes sense to me.
What is the influencing factor that allows man's intelligence to escape his animalistic tendencies?
The level of Intelligence. Why don't we all just rape and pillage and kill because we might be able to?
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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #155

Post by William »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #154]
Reality may be some combination of what you listed from these people, or things they didn't list. Maybe our high level of intelligence allows us to make decisions with a lot more input and considerations than a non-human animal. We can certainly out think them, so why would general decision making be any different. Taxonomically we are clearly members of the animal kingdom. Would you put us in with plants or fungii?
Search: "are humans related to mushrooms?"
https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/how-a ... lants.html

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #156

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #154]
What fraction of the Neanderthal brain was neocortex? That was the point of the chimp comparison, but neocortex volume is just one factor.

They show that Neanderthal brains were only slightly larger than modern humans (by about 4.4% ... 1410 cc average vs 1350 cc for modern humans... not 23%). But the size range for both is large. Again, none of this is "my theory."
It is the theory that you believe in. 1410 cc is the low 1750 is the high and that would be 22%.


Sigmund, Skinner, and Crick would be interpreting human behavior in terms of animal instinct. So why would you say that they may not be correct?

Reality maybe some combination of what you listed from these people or things they didn't list. Maybe our high level of intelligence allows us to make decisions with a lot more input and considerations than a non-human animal. We can certainly outthink them, so why would general decision-making be any different. Taxonomically we are clearly members of the animal kingdom. Would you put us in with plants or fungii?

How can you say it may be something different? Modern psychology is built and the theories of Freud. Are you saying that you do not believe in Freud's 5 stages of psychosexual development?
Freudian theory suggests that as children develop, they progress through a series of psychosexual stages. At each stage, the libido's pleasure-seeking energy is focused on a different part of the body.

The five stages of psychosexual development are:7

The oral stage: The libidinal energies are focused on the mouth.
The anal stage: The libidinal energies are focused on the anus.
The phallic stage: The libidinal energies are focused on the penis or clitoris.
The latent stage: A period of calm in which little libidinal interest is present.
The genital stage: The libidinal energies are focused on the genitals.
Alfred Kinsey who started the Kinsey institute believed in Freudian theory and did some very sick research that he published in the now-famous Kinsey Report
Not only did Kinsey hypothesize that infants are orgasmic from birth, but he also suggested that incest relationships and pedophilia benefit children. In his writing, Kinsey asserted that there was no proven medical or other reason to forbid incest or adult-child sex. “Children are sexual and potentially orgasmic from birth (womb to tomb), are unharmed by incest, adult/child sex, and often benefit thereby,”
How he obtained his data on children from infants to adults is more than a little vague.

If what Kinsey says is true then what reason would you have to say that society should not act in this theory?

The same could be said about "abortion" in New York. Why not kill babies after they are born for up to a month? If it helps over population.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #157

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #156]
It is the theory that you believe in. 1410 cc is the low 1750 is the high and that would be 22%.
The article I linked with some actual brain volume measurements show a large Neanderthal range of 1172 - 1740 cc, and for 60 stone age Homo sapiens the range was 1090 - 1775 cc, so nearly the same. But the point is that there is large variation in the brain volumes of both Neanderthals and modern humans, with the averages showing Neanderthals only about 4-5% larger.
Are you saying that you do not believe in Freud's 5 stages of psychosexual development?
What on earth does Freud's theories on psychosexual development have to do with humans being taxonomically classified as animals? I've not read Freud and pay no attention to that sort of thing, so I can't comment on whether I believe he's right or not.
If what Kinsey says is true then what reason would you have to say that society should not act in this theory?
Don't see where you're trying to go with this. I dont't believe that humans are special creations, but instead evolved from earlier apes and as part of that process they developed a very complex and capable brain. That does not remove us from being animals in the taxonomic sense. If you're using the word animal as a metaphor such as in "they treated the POWs like animals" that is another thing altogether.
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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #158

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #0]
What on earth do Freud's theories on psychosexual development have to do with humans being taxonomically classified as animals? I've not read Freud and pay no attention to that sort of thing, so I can't comment on whether I believe he's right or not.
You are saying something physically different about the brain causes a difference in intelligence and it is the difference that causes the difference between animals and humans. But what is intelligence?

Intelligence reasoned that we can perform "abortions" after the baby has been born. State of New York.
Intelligence reasoned that children can have sex at any age. According to Kinsey.
Intelligence has reasoned that the Earth is overpopulated and so minorities should not have children. Sanger
Those that rape and murder rationalize that in their minds.

Intelligence allows us to make moral decisions like the ones above.

Animals are driven by instinct and Pavlov's laws. Or to put it in Freudian terms.
The id is the most primitive part of the personality that is the source of all our most basic urges. This part of the personality is entirely unconscious and serves as the source of all libidinal energy.
Animals are stuck where they can go no farther than the id.

The ego is the component of personality that is charged with dealing with reality and helps ensure that the demands of the id are satisfied in ways that are realistic, safe, and socially acceptable.
Intelligence is required to access what is real and what is realistic, safe, and socially acceptable.
The superego is the part of the personality that holds all of the internalized morals and standards that we acquire from our parents, family, and society at large.
It takes intelligence to internalize morals and standards.


Freud says that men have to be driven by the basic instincts in which he believed the sex was the greatest. And then the ego and the superego tame the id. Using Freudian theory it would be the ego and the superego that separate us from the animal kingdom and I would say is what gives humanity a conscientiousness that animals do not have.

Chrisitanity would explain this differently. But I can go with Freudian theory for now.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #159

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #158]
You are saying something physically different about the brain causes a difference in intelligence and it is the difference that causes the difference between animals and humans. But what is intelligence?

Intelligence reasoned that we can perform "abortions" after the baby has been born. State of New York.
Intelligence reasoned that children can have sex at any age. According to Kinsey.
Intelligence has reasoned that the Earth is overpopulated and so minorities should not have children. Sanger
Those that rape and murder rationalize that in their minds.

Intelligence allows us to make moral decisions like the ones above.
Is that all intelligence does? You're leaving out the other 99.9999...%. It has allowed us to develop mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology and all of the scientific disciplines; develop medicines and treatments to cure diseases or manage them, and recover from accidents; build civilizations; improve farming operations, travel, and the list goes on. You've cherry picked a few bad examples and implied that this kind of thing is all that intelligence provides.

Most social animals have some level of "morals." I've never seen a pasture of cows (or sheep or anything else) all fighting and killing their young because they are animals and don't know any better. They understand how to coexist and reproduce and behave in ways that fosters their continued survival and safety. This is inherent in all social animals.

Intelligence is not a binary thing ... it exists on a scale from very low to very high depending on the animal. Insects make decisions on where to go to find food, they organize to protect their living spaces, and other things that require some kind of rudimentary analysis. My dog can distinguish me from other people, respond to specific sounds and words even if he does not understand the word meaning as a human would, he knows to "ask" to go outside when nature calls, and many other things he's been trained to do with some requiring thinking on his part. Then you have humans who presently top the list, but intelligence is a matter of degree. It isn't something fundamentally different in humans ... we just have a more capable brain that allows for a very high level of intelligence compared to other animals.
Intelligence is required to access what is real and what is realistic, safe, and socially acceptable.
Right ... which is why all social animals behave in the ways that they do. Human intelligence is the result of a brain that evolved over several million years driven by the clear advantage provided by a higher level of intelligence, with genetic modifications selected that allowed this process to happen. We've apparently reached a level of brain size and structure over the last few hundred thousand years that a physically larger brain confers no additional advantage (at least not enough for evolution to carry the process farther at this point in time). Come back in another few million years and maybe we'll need even larger brains and look like some of the cartoon aliens, or maybe we'll be extinct. Who knows.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #160

Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #0]

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #159]
Is that all intelligence does? You're leaving out the other 99.9999...%. It has allowed us to develop mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology and all of the scientific disciplines; develop medicines and treatments to cure diseases or manage them, and recover from accidents; build civilizations; improve farming operations, travel, and the list goes on. You've cherry picked a few bad examples and implied that this kind of thing is all that intelligence provides.
How could you call them bad examples? What are you basing that assessment on? Even rape and murder give the perpetrator pleasure otherwise he would not do it. Josef Mengele claimed to be a "scientist". Scientists can go down the same sick road as anyone else given the right circumstances.
Most social animals have some level of "morals." I've never seen a pasture of cows (or sheep or anything else) all fighting and killing their young because they are animals and don't know any better. They understand how to coexist and reproduce and behave in ways that foster their continued survival and safety. This is inherent in all social animals.
Social animals live in authoritarian social structures and will kill any animal that does not conform to the social structure. At least that is how my goats behave. There are a few things that are hard-wired into animals otherwise they would not survive. Taking care of their young and the social structure. That is why I do not consider them to be conscious like humans are conscious. They simply act on instinct. Men act on something more than instinct and what about intelligence allows men to overcome instinct. Goats and animals see food and the giver of food and they are happy about that.

Right ... which is why all social animals behave in the ways that they do. Human intelligence is the result of a brain that evolved over several million years driven by the clear advantage provided by a higher level of intelligence, with genetic modifications selected that allowed this process to happen. We've apparently reached a level of brain size and structure over the last few hundred thousand years that a physically larger brain confers no additional advantage (at least not enough for evolution to carry the process farther at this point in time). Come back in another few million years and maybe we'll need even larger brains and look like some of the cartoon aliens, or maybe we'll be extinct. Who knows.
Or we might be Morlocks, totally without morals, and eats Elois.

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