What is ' consciousness ' ?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Thomas123
Sage
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 am
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 2 times

What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #1

Post by Thomas123 »

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Guru
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #61

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Thomas123 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:59 am This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?
I don't know what consciousness is. But I know what it isn't; physical. And it doesn't take a neuroscientist (pun intended) to know where I am going from here...
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
DrNoGods
Guru
Posts: 1903
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 804 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #62

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #62]
I don't know what consciousness is. But I know what it isn't; physical. And it doesn't take a neuroscientist (pun intended) to know where I am going from here...
But is consciousness the manifestation of physical elements in the brain working together to create it? I don't think anyone would argue against consciousness itself being not physical, but why would you think it is not an emergent property of a working brain? Sure seems to work that way (and I'm not a neuroscientist ... but how else do you explain it?).
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #63

Post by William »

DrNoGods wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:53 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #62]
I don't know what consciousness is. But I know what it isn't; physical. And it doesn't take a neuroscientist (pun intended) to know where I am going from here...
But is consciousness the manifestation of physical elements in the brain working together to create it? I don't think anyone would argue against consciousness itself being not physical, but why would you think it is not an emergent property of a working brain? Sure seems to work that way (and I'm not a neuroscientist ... but how else do you explain it?).
My thoughts on this are that is seems more logical to go with consciousness not being an emergent property of working brains because this implies that the material can create the immaterial, which seems to be unnatural [goes against] in regard to how nature creates. Nature creates using what is materially available. Why would it first [or at all] need to create something immaterial to then be enabled do this?

Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains]. First making the basics and then getting into the details.

User avatar
brunumb
Prodigy
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3001 times
Been thanked: 1635 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #64

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains].
The immaterial creating the material seems even less natural than the other way around.

How do you explain unconsciousness?
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #65

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:35 pm
William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains].
The immaterial creating the material seems even less natural than the other way around.

How do you explain unconsciousness?
Why would you think that the immaterial is more natural? Explain why the material required the immaterial as a natural unfolding of the material.

How is unconsciousness explained either way? How does one explain consciousness deriving from unconsciousness?

The way I see unconsciousness is as an event in which consciousness does not participate - other than subconsciously...and within the framework of a human experience it is made possible...to experience unconsciousness as a non-participation event because we know we can experience it, but not in any way in which we know we participate in it.

User avatar
brunumb
Prodigy
Posts: 3931
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 3001 times
Been thanked: 1635 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #66

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:35 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:35 pm
William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains].
The immaterial creating the material seems even less natural than the other way around.

How do you explain unconsciousness?
Why would you think that the immaterial is more natural? Explain why the material required the immaterial as a natural unfolding of the material.

How is unconsciousness explained either way? How does one explain consciousness deriving from unconsciousness?

The way I see unconsciousness is as an event in which consciousness does not participate - other than subconsciously...and within the framework of a human experience it is made possible...to experience unconsciousness as a non-participation event because we know we can experience it, but not in any way in which we know we participate in it.
Sorry William, but I can't make heads nor tails out of any of what you just said. I don't see how the material comes from the material. I have no idea of what you are saying about unconsciousness. When I recently had a general anaesthetic I was obviously unconscious. What do you consider happens under those circumstances?
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2112
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 407 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #67

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:53 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #62]
I don't know what consciousness is. But I know what it isn't; physical. And it doesn't take a neuroscientist (pun intended) to know where I am going from here...
But is consciousness the manifestation of physical elements in the brain working together to create it? I don't think anyone would argue against consciousness itself being not physical, but why would you think it is not an emergent property of a working brain? Sure seems to work that way (and I'm not a neuroscientist ... but how else do you explain it?).
My thoughts on this are that is seems more logical to go with consciousness not being an emergent property of working brains because this implies that the material can create the immaterial, which seems to be unnatural [goes against] in regard to how nature creates. Nature creates using what is materially available. Why would it first [or at all] need to create something immaterial to then be enabled do this?

Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains]. First making the basics and then getting into the details.
Increasingly a lot of threads on this forum are connected.
Mrs.Badham wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:50 pm So, after much deliberation, I’ve come up with this;
My picker is my conscious self.
My brain is not a single organ. It’s like 30 organs. Each one is responsible for a different aspect of my self. Each one makes requests and demands of my consciousness.
It’s my consciousness that is responsible for the prioritization of those demands and requests. I think consciousness is proof of free will, because there are aspects of ourselves that don’t require consciousness. My beating heart, my immune system and my lungs. Perhaps they have a form of consciousness all their own. Sperm would seem to.
Anyway, my consciousness is what ties me together. It’s what makes my many parts a singular person.

User avatar
AgnosticBoy
Guru
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 96 times
Contact:

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #68

Post by AgnosticBoy »

DrNoGods wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:53 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #62]
I don't know what consciousness is. But I know what it isn't; physical. And it doesn't take a neuroscientist (pun intended) to know where I am going from here...
But is consciousness the manifestation of physical elements in the brain working together to create it? I don't think anyone would argue against consciousness itself being not physical, but why would you think it is not an emergent property of a working brain? Sure seems to work that way (and I'm not a neuroscientist ... but how else do you explain it?).
Consciousness and brain are definitely related. Defining that relationship is one challenge by itself. Even if consciousness is physical, the brain may just be a medium as opposed to being the cause for it. There is a pretty good line of evidence that supports the view that brain and body can function without consciousness, and that to me points to consciousness being separate. To avoid the interaction problem that tends to come up with dualism, I can just simply say that both are physical, even if separate, and they interact, of course.

One of my doubts about consciousness being physical is that it is unlike any other physical thing in the Universe in that there is a subjective aspect to it. What type of phenomena is it? And I'm not just referring to just simply qualitative feelings or experiences, like subjective feeling of pain, but even the content of mental experiences, like mental imagery, dreams, etc. If hallucinations are classified as non-physical or non-existent because they don't really occupy space, then why can't mental imagery of any kind be thought of the same way?!
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 10486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 494 times
Been thanked: 1129 times
Contact:

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #69

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:30 am
William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:35 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:35 pm
William wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thus it seems more logical to accept that the immaterial created the material and placed itself within that material in order to then further shape that material in ways which would help it to create through that material [such as working brains].
The immaterial creating the material seems even less natural than the other way around.

How do you explain unconsciousness?
Why would you think that the immaterial is more natural? Explain why the material required the immaterial as a natural unfolding of the material.

How is unconsciousness explained either way? How does one explain consciousness deriving from unconsciousness?

The way I see unconsciousness is as an event in which consciousness does not participate - other than subconsciously...and within the framework of a human experience it is made possible...to experience unconsciousness as a non-participation event because we know we can experience it, but not in any way in which we know we participate in it.
Sorry William, but I can't make heads nor tails out of any of what you just said. I don't see how the material comes from the material. I have no idea of what you are saying about unconsciousness. When I recently had a general anaesthetic I was obviously unconscious. What do you consider happens under those circumstances?
From what I can gather brunumb, you are asking where in my understanding that the material [physical] does not create the immaterial [consciousness], when there is the known state called "unconsciousness".

You site your recent general anaesthetic where you were obviously unconscious. In that, you lost all consciousness - therefore you take that as evidence that the material created the immaterial. Would that be what you are saying?

Thomas123
Sage
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:04 am
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #70

Post by Thomas123 »

Thomas123 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:00 am https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/202 ... s-project/

I would welcome opinion on this article!
Just as a matter of interest ,.....did anyone read the article, as requested?

Post Reply