What is ' consciousness ' ?

[Thomas123]

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

[Tcg]

Death - as can be seen in nature, does not display any example of something becoming nothing.

Death is about transformation.

Yes, indeed. From something like this:



To this:



There's something left behind. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust and all that.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #91]

Exactly.
Also to note, the flesh which covered the bones has transformed as well.

That is why one can observe consciousness vanishes but - following the rules of nature - can not make the unsupported claim re the observations, that it becomes 'nothing'.

To do so would be to go against nature since consciousness is a part of nature -

Death transforms. Theism understands this to mean that conscious experience of personality naturally continues...

[Tcg]

[Replying to William in post #92]

Q: Psst, hey buddy, how you doing?



A:


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #93]

Theism understands this to mean that conscious experience of personality naturally continues...not in the bones it once occupied...you have gone off track there. There are some theists who do believe that consciousness stays with the body, but even if that were the case, you will get no reply from "buddy"...

Theist and non-theist have diametrical beliefs about what happens to the conscious personality when the body dies.
viewtopic.php?p=1074143#p1074143

[brunumb]

That is why one can observe consciousness vanishes but - following the rules of nature - can not make the unsupported claim re the observations, that it becomes 'nothing'.

When someone stops smiling, the smile vanishes and becomes....... nothing. Perhaps consciousness becomes nothing in the same sense when the processes that produce it cease.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #86]

It seems then that we need to find a way to detect consciousness apart from bodily activity (e.g. deliberate verbal or bodily responses), and even apart brain activity (if possible). Those that dismiss the latter scenario tend to do so based on ideology than on any evidence.

I'm referring to concsiousness in the "bigger picture" case of some entity that has it, or does not have it. A person in a vegetative state would still be alive and have a brain that at some level is working (at a minimum to maintain the key functions that the hind brain regulates, for example). So although they may not be able to communicate verbally or respond physically, the fact that their brain is not literally dead would allow for some level of consciousness in the general sense I am referring to.

This is different from things that (in my view) do not possess consciousness at all such as rocks, plants, buildings, etc. I don't know of any example of a living entity possessing consciousness (the ability to be aware of its existence and surroundings, and itself) that does not have a brain, nor of examples of something with a brain and possessing consciousness that does not lose it when they die.

I share your sentiment that evidence or some type of confirmation is important. HOwever, where you and I might part ways is when it comes to the types of conclusions that we draw. Some of mine are less restrictive than yours on this issue. For instance, Is it really justified to conclude that the brain causes consciousness? or Is it more reasonable to simply say that the brain and consciousness interact while leaving the relationship of the interaction open?

Here are some points that create doubts in the explanation that materialists offer:
1. Experts have not settled on what the form and function of consciousness is so it sends them off looking at different things. I'd want to know the most rudimentary form of consciousness before saying it can't exist as part of rocks or anything else besides the brain.
2. Consciousness itself can cause things, including changing the function of brain (self-directed neuroplasticity).
3. Conscious behavior correlates with brain activity, but then why can we carry out the same behaviors without consciousness (e.g. zombies, sleepwalkers or those who suffer from 'somnambulism')? Therefore, can the brain/body can exist/function without consciousness?

[William]

That is why one can observe consciousness vanishes but - following the rules of nature - can not make the unsupported claim re the observations, that it becomes 'nothing'.

When someone stops smiling, the smile vanishes and becomes....... nothing. Perhaps consciousness becomes nothing in the same sense when the processes that produce it cease.

Perhaps is fine, just as perhaps the conscious personality experience a transformation if fine.

[2ndRateMind]

So, some very interesting contributions, here. My own feeling is that consciousness must survive the brain, by whatever mechanism, since Justice must be done. I am equally concerned by the notion that ordinary, decent folk do not receive their proper vindication, as that the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and Putins of the world escape their misdeeds by oblivion. And since God is good, and justice is good, God is just.

Thus am I inclined to think.

Best wishes, 2RM

[Tcg]

My own feeling is that consciousness must survive the brain, by whatever mechanism, since Justice must be done.

A desire for justice is not evidence that justice will ever be achieved, much less evidence that consciousness survives after death.


Tcg

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #96]

3. Conscious behavior correlates with brain activity, but then why can we carry out the same behaviors without consciousness (e.g. zombies, sleepwalkers or those who suffer from 'somnambulism')? Therefore, can the brain/body can exist/function without consciousness?

I'd argue that the sleepwalker is still conscious in that the brain is working and some sensory input is working, but while still in a state of sleep. They may be dreaming and physically "taking part" in their dream beyond the normal staying in bed with eyes closed. Such people can apparently navigate a room, make it to the fridge and eat a snack, etc. which would not be possible without some of the usual sensory inputs and processing by the brain.

I'd also characterize a person in deep REM sleep as conscious in that their brain is working and managing all the lower level functions like breathing, etc., but their state of being asleep makes them less aware of their surroundings compared to a fully awake state, but still technically conscious. It is the genuinely dead person that would lose all capacity for any awareness of any kind, and to me that is when their consciousness vanishes entirely. But I'm convinced that consciousness is indeed an emergent property of a working brain so by definition it would vanish when the brain stops working.

If the brain doesn't cause consciousness, what is the alternative explanation? Or what definition of consciousness allows, for example, a rock to possess it at any level at all? It seem to me that the very definition of consciousness would preclude anything like a rock from having it (or a plant). Merriam-Webster give this definition:

Consciousness noun
\
Definition of consciousness

1a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness especially : concern for some social or political cause The organization aims to raise the political consciousness of teenagers.
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life regained consciousness
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes